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Author Topic: vLSO Beta release  (Read 509570 times)
Paddles
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2011, 06:10:44 AM »

...can you clarify what is the difference is between the moderate and meduim vLSO calls? Not sure what calls drop off at each level. I think I understand full and zip lip.

Good question!  Smiley This abundance might really confuse people. I agree that it's better to get rid of these four levels and leave only two - FULL and ZIP-LIP. However, why not to add another switch (or a pair of buttons) instead, setting how 'tough' is the vLSO, say Nugget and CAG. This way, when in Nugget mode, the vLSO could be very talkative and more forgiving, but when in CAG mode the vLSO would be less talking but less forgiving at the same time. What's your opinion?  Wink

Quote from: capthaltli
Also when does the clock start for groove time? When you manually call the ball? I got 13 seconds, with a tight turn and calling the ball IM.

The clock starts when you call the ball, either manually or automatically.

Quote from: capthaltli
Are all the LSO calls implemented from the Sound's folder? How do you get a "very nice" call?

Yes, all the calls are from the Sound folder. And, as you noticed, there are some calls that are not implemented yet. I reserved them for future use. Maybe.  Grin

Quote from: capthaltli
Finally what is the difference between a wave off and wave off pattern? Is one worse?

Don't really know which one worse. The NAVAIR 00-80T-104 specifies both WO and WOP as LSO symbols without any explanations. I found this call on a T45 clip, and just modeled the same situation, so when you keep approaching high and not descending you may get WOP. Both WO and WOP currently score one point. If someone has more info on this, it would be awesome...

Quote from: capthaltli
Two things I noticed which might need tweaking, first is the speed sensitivity and grading. I understand you have to be on speed, but some of my passes I am getting a little fast in the LSO write up grade, but the debrief visualization line is yellow. Not sure what is going on here, maybe I had a yellow dougnut and red chevron at the same time.

Right, that's because you had a doughnut and red chevron at the same time. This means you AoA was somewhere between 6.9-7.4. The debrief line gets red when the AoA is less than 7.4. Should I change it to 6.9? Or maybe to something like 7.1, halfway to pure red chevron?

Quote from: capthaltli
Second is the PLAT camera is slightly off from the PLAT cross hair guage, or at least it looks that way on my display.

I didn't even attempt to sync the PLAT camera and the PLAT gauge. I just put the camera in a point where deck centerline and datum lights plane cross.
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Sludge
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2011, 09:07:21 AM »

Serge...

Wow, this is such a great program, I dont know where to start. Great job!! The addition of the MANUAL Ball Call, along with the ability to use OUTSIDE of missions in FREE FLIGHT just kicks the doors in! I have a test setup where I can take off from Miramar, head out and catch some traps on a Javier-based carrier (carrier tracks 1 and 2, ai traffic), then go do some tanking afterwards. Needless to say, the tanker went to Vegas on his own this night. No time for him today. Was smiling like I won the lotto when I did an ICLS approach and made the ball call at 3/4 mile... then greeted back with Roger, ball, and responses.

OK, some observations, now that I'm coming back down to earth.

My input would be for 3 levels: Nugget - ALL COMMS; Fleet - Ball Call, big corrections ("lined up LEFT", "youre high"), safety of flight; CAG - Ball Call, safety of flight ONLY ("POWER, POWER!!", "WAVEOFF, WAVEOFF!!").

What are the parameters for the Abeam? 590-610 ft and 1.2-1.5 NM TCN? What's your baseline number and margin of error? I'm asking, so I know what to fly.

And here's my problem with the Ball Call distance. When I called the first ball, in-flight/on-HUD it was 0.7NM, but the vLSO GS/LU screens had me at approx 3900'.

Finally, the last problem is that I keep getting the "youre low" when I'm crossing the threshold over the rounddown and into the wires. Is there a way you can shut off ALL COMMS at that point? Maybe WAVEOFF, but if you are that close in, I think WAVEOFF would be dangerous? Just my opinion there, but I think the glideslope gets too sensitive when it gets close that it over-reads the glideslope and calls "low" even though I'm cresting the ball (one ball high) into the wires.

I can take some pics of this if you want?

Again though, minor criticisms, just helping you perfect the best! Great program, friend!!

Later
Sludge


* Sludge_BallCall_07NM.jpg (843.85 KB, 1920x1200 - viewed 1036 times.)

* Sludge_BallCall_07NM_GSWindow.jpg (97.11 KB, 1191x960 - viewed 2991 times.)

* Sludge_BallCall_07NM_LUWindow.jpg (79.08 KB, 1190x960 - viewed 911 times.)
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Orion
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2011, 09:16:37 AM »

Heh, Sludge, nice approach! Grin
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Sludge
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2011, 09:22:02 AM »

Orion...

Thanks but I was all over the damn place, you should see my REAL approaches. Have you tried the vLSO yet? Its tough but the coolest part is now you can do it on any carrier and it responds, its friggin awesome.

Later
Sludge
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Orion
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2011, 12:12:04 PM »

Nope, haven't had a chance yet.  When I do, though, I'll probably manage to set the record for worst approach and quickest wave off. Tongue  Haven't flown the Hornet for a while.

Edit: Even though I probably shouldn't be wasting my time this early in the morning with school later...  I gave it a shot anyways.  I pretty much crashed. Tongue

If you want to see the horrifying video of me crashing... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pq2ouGRYq4&hd=1 (much worse than my pitching deck landing, if that's any reference)

Edit 2: That's about as close as the drunk flying I see from others sometimes, I think (previous edit was at 3:30 AM).  Sleep deprived flying. Tongue


* firstpass.jpg (164.09 KB, 1193x769 - viewed 871 times.)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 05:18:16 PM by Orion » Logged
Sludge
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2011, 05:59:58 PM »

Orion...

That was far better than I've seen alot of approaches. And AR, you stuck with using power to control RoD (as you should) and tried keeping the W on the 5.

However, in light of your "drunk driving", you should go by your new callsign "Drunken Master" (or DM for short) and use this image as your avatar. The heading reads: "Don't cross his path when he's drunk."  Grin  All you'd have to do it change it to read: "Don't cross his FLIGHT path when he's drunk." I know that one guy in multi (forgot his name, "you're supposed to have a STERILE cockpit") could use it too, as he drank alot during our sessions and got really cranky, but I thought you could get it first.

Later
Sludge



* images.jpg (10.46 KB, 184x275 - viewed 796 times.)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 06:06:42 PM by Sludge » Logged

micro
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2011, 06:11:40 PM »

Just flew a couple of patterns in Dino's T-45 and found a curious thing. I'm on speed most of the time but the LSO constantly telling me I'm fast. I took this vid of a lap I did:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU6BkJ6rals" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU6BkJ6rals</a>

And here is the debrief:


* Debrief.JPG (89.82 KB, 1192x769 - viewed 873 times.)
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Sludge
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2011, 06:13:13 PM »

Orion...

BTW, I see you got 16 secs in the groove. Did you do a full pattern or a straight in approach? Reason I'm asking is that I have done both but cant get it under 20. I see that you have 25 kts of WoD, think I'm gonna change it and see what happens. The one thing that this vLSO program does well now, is make you fly a good pattern (abeam, rollout, and time in groove)... and I've been working on that all the time.

Did you use your SF Carrier mission?

Later
Sludge
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Sludge
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2011, 06:23:21 PM »

Micro...

Seriously dude, you suck. That's the smoothest pattern I've ever seen. Did you actually fly that from the backseat? You could easily superimpose your video with the REAL WORLD Y/T "Lap around the boat" T-45 video and there would be very little difference. The abeam turn was nice and easy and the turn to final was buttah. You were all but setup for a OK 3 pass from the start.

I'm guessing the approach is still F-18 centric. I think you can use a T-45 but it still gives you F-18 speed calls? Thats just an outside observation, you'll have to wait for Serge's final verdict.

Later
Sludge
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SpazSinbad
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2011, 10:36:08 PM »

micro as Sludge is saying 'a very good video'. The video is very atmospheric also with the views outside suggesting it was a completely visual circuit/approach. I don't have sound to guess that that is good also? BZ. A great example of what can be done in FSX carrier landings.
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GOONIE
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2011, 10:45:34 PM »

Good question!  Smiley This abundance might really confuse people. I agree that it's better to get rid of these four levels and leave only two - FULL and ZIP-LIP. However, why not to add another switch (or a pair of buttons) instead, setting how 'tough' is the vLSO, say Nugget and CAG. This way, when in Nugget mode, the vLSO could be very talkative and more forgiving, but when in CAG mode the vLSO would be less talking but less forgiving at the same time. What's your opinion?  Wink

I like Sludge's suggestion, three settings: Nugget, Fleet, CAG.

Right, that's because you had a doughnut and red chevron at the same time. This means you AoA was somewhere between 6.9-7.4. The debrief line gets red when the AoA is less than 7.4. Should I change it to 6.9? Or maybe to something like 7.1, halfway to pure red chevron?

Does anyone know how real world LSO's grade AoA (on speed)? Do they grade speed at the 0.1 degree level of AoA? I am not an LSO, but I would assume they use the AoA indexer on the nose gear and also aircraft attitude. Using that logic, the cockpit AoA indexer could show a yellow doughnut and red chevron at the same time when the nose gear AoA indexer would only show yellow (I think this is correct). Here is a picture showing AoA varies during the approach with the ultimate goal of being on speed. What do others think or does anyone have any real world input?

-CAPT

 

 


* HornetNightLightApproachScreenED.jpg (168.21 KB, 1533x1042 - viewed 1054 times.)
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SUBS17
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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2011, 11:43:15 PM »

SUBS17,
Currently the vLSO supports both the default and Sludge F-18A Hornets, Dino's T-45C Goshawk, Dino's F-14D Tomcat and KAHU A-4G Skyhawk. It also should support VRS Super Hornet... Please, can you tell me what's the value of ATC_MODEL parameter under [General] section in your VRS SH's Aircraft.cfg file? AFAIK it should read F18E.

Yes it shows atc_model=F18E
Now where can I find the Kahu I'll have to take that for a spin.
I'll do another test later today BTW regarding the ball would it call Rhino ball for an F?
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Orion
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« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2011, 12:49:16 AM »

Orion...

That was far better than I've seen alot of approaches. And AR, you stuck with using power to control RoD (as you should) and tried keeping the W on the 5.

However, in light of your "drunk driving", you should go by your new callsign "Drunken Master" (or DM for short) and use this image as your avatar. The heading reads: "Don't cross his path when he's drunk."  Grin  All you'd have to do it change it to read: "Don't cross his FLIGHT path when he's drunk." I know that one guy in multi (forgot his name, "you're supposed to have a STERILE cockpit") could use it too, as he drank alot during our sessions and got really cranky, but I thought you could get it first.

Later
Sludge
Hehe, thanks.  Must be my actual flight lessons rubbing off on my virtual flying. Grin  I'm sure I can do better, though.  I'll post another pass when I get time.

Thanks for the callsign suggestion, but I'll leave that for ATPJET, since he's the actual drunken pilot master. Tongue  I've actually picked out a new callsign for next time we're flying multiplayer carrier ops. Cool

Orion...

BTW, I see you got 16 secs in the groove. Did you do a full pattern or a straight in approach? Reason I'm asking is that I have done both but cant get it under 20. I see that you have 25 kts of WoD, think I'm gonna change it and see what happens. The one thing that this vLSO program does well now, is make you fly a good pattern (abeam, rollout, and time in groove)... and I've been working on that all the time.

Did you use your SF Carrier mission?

Later
Sludge
I tried doing a pattern, but wound up about two miles behind the carrier on my base.  I got a too close abeam call from the vLSO as well, if that gives you a sense of the pattern I tried making. Tongue

And no, I didn't.  I have a custom single player flight/mission type thing set up for myself. Tongue
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 12:51:19 AM by Orion » Logged
SpazSinbad
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« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2011, 01:58:56 AM »

Some interesting questions for an LSO to answer. IMHO a WOP would be for a poor pattern - too wide / too close abeam and too long in the groove the most prevalent of a WOP I guess. The LSO will not tolerate 'long time in the groove' because that messes up the other aircraft in the pattern. Better to wave off the one too long to save the other 3 or more which are correctly spaced to be recovered expeditiously rather than to allow the chap who is long to land and waving off the other three.

LSOs become very good at gaugeing all kinds of subtle clues from the aircraft attitude, smoke out the back, noise if it can be heard and the nosewheel lights. There are ways for the aircraft to be on speed but carrying too much power for example that are beyond the vLSO capability probably. Remember the LSO is a human and not a computer. There are many variables in any approach while the LSO notes what he considers important at the time.

I have not been test flying the vLSO but have an inkling of what it is like from my testing of the FCLP pattern V1 and V2 with fsxnp. Being absolutely accurate is likely only in one person's opinion. Yes at the ramp the LSO should stop talking unless an Emergency Wave Off is warranted (foul deck) with a faint hope that it will be successful; or the aircraft will clear the ramp for a taxi one or better. Sounds to me like fsxnp is doing a great job with vLSO.
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« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2011, 02:17:47 AM »

subs17 asked about the 'KAHU'. It is a cheapware FSX version of the A-4K Skyhawk upgraded / modified by the RNZAF in the late 1980s - early 1990s to the 'KAHU' standard with a HUD amongst other things. The Kiwi chaps making/modifing the FSX version were not familiar with the AOA indexer nor with requirements of carrier landing. My attempts to have them change the parameters (I was the flying characteristics tester) to get a better landing configuration response were not viable. They only consider it as a land runway version. The view is not so good out the front either. It is not a good candidate for carrier landings but OK for land landings. Cheesy  Otherwise the model is excellent with accurate flying responses and working everything otherwise correctly and it looks very nice when doing all those things including the wonderful parachute out the back on landing. A lot of old style earlier than FSX A-4 aircraft used to fly like Lear Jets and drop out of the sky when the spoilers were activated. None of this happens with the KAHU. The leading edge slats work as well as the spoilers, speedbrake and brake parachute, with opening canopy etc.

Here is a video of a test flight (I always took off in the same configuration because the circuit was where the changes needed to be made, so that aspect is not realistic, a good circuit is a tight circuit). The brake chute was made larger and more realistic also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uydh7fsiz4w

http://www.flightsim.com/main/review/a4k.htm
&
http://www.fspilotshop.com/product_info.php?products_id=2465

This was their old website: http://www.fratbrosdesign.com/

Did not realise there is now so much info available on it online. Whatever.

I hope one day to see an accurate (as accurate as the Hornet) Skyhawk available (without the HUD being in the way) for some old style carrier landings. Meatball, line up and airspeed (Optimum Angle of Attack).

Someone may find the engine response and carrier landing flying qualities OK so don't let me put you off a very good FSX aircraft.  Grin

RNZAF A4K KAHU Skyhawk - test circuit NAS Nowra

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uydh7fsiz4w" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uydh7fsiz4w</a>
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 02:23:16 AM by SpazSinbad » Logged

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