Sludge Hornet Modifications

[SUBS17]

The F-14s vs SU27s incident took place in the 80s and was in an article in Janes Defence magazine. The F-14 vs Mig29 incident is mentioned in a book about Iranian F-14s from what I've heard it was just a dogfight practice that took place after the first Mig29 arrived in Iran. As for the Cobra it would probably be better suited combined with TVN.

[Sludge]

Subs...

Well, I've tried to verify your listed incidents/activities and have come up with complete blanks, so I'll just let that go 'til you get some specific links that we can all read up on.  However, I did find another forum that talks about dogfighting that correlates some of what I was discussing with my Eagle driver buddy AND how the F-15 and F-14s are close-in turning PIGs.  Look at the "teufelhund1918" user posts.  He seems legit.  Also, the "displacedjim" user seems to be in-the-know as he talks about "a-pole" parameters correctly and has some good points about technology.  I disagree with a few points about the AMRAAM being the best missile (unless he knows) and launch parameters, as the airforce will rarely (1 blue v multiple red) if ever, launch "off the rails".  Also, how the AA-10C (R-27ER) or the -10E (R-27AE) has some very nice ranges/specs that make it comparable to AMRAAM-120C.

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/9-66/page2.aspx

And this is in addition to the F-15 and their well known structural problems.  After this, as an Eagle driver, would you have confidence pulling 7 or more Gs.  Some dont.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/aging-aircraft-usaf-f-15-fleet-grounded-04149/

Later
Sludge

[SUBS17]

F-15s have beaten Mig29s IRL on many occassions the only jet that has ever shot down an F-15 is another F-15.

BTW FYI

The US Navy had been having a naval exercise in the northern Norwegian Sea. Su-27 started harrassing the P-3 Orions which normally patrolled that area. On the final day of the exercise the carrier sent two F-14D's to escort the P-3. The F-14's flew in very tight formation with the P-3, until Norwegian GCI warn them of approaching aircraft. When the Su-27's got close, the F-14D's broke formation and rode the tails of the Su-27's. There was a big party aboard the carrier that night with gun camera footage being shown.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=32218&page=2

Theres a little more to this story from what I understand though the SU27s pilots were shocked as to how fast the F-14s got behind them. I admit the SU27 has alot of advantages over an F-14 but I think all this comes down to the experience of the pilots that were flying those F-14s. Regarding the Aim120 it depends on what version you are talking about when comparing it to other missiles when talking of the R27ER it is not comparable to an Aim120 because it is a Semi-active homing missile the AE is supposed to be an active radar homing missile up to 130km but limitations are with the radar and the ECM suite that the targeted aircraft might employ. Basically eventhough it might have a longer range than an Aim120 it will still be relying on the launch aircrafts radar or wingmans radar to burn through the ECM to get to the tgt or it might use HOJ but that can be countered with towed decoys. IMO an R77 is more colser to the Aim120 but even that missile has gone through its own modifications with the Aim120D having quite a good range.

[Sludge]

Subs...

Yeah, the only reason they havent gotten shot down is 'cause they havent gotten tangled up with SU-27s.  Easily a match for an F-15 with a good pilot.  And now with the LIMs on sustained G's, no match at all.  The F-15 would come apart at the longitudinal spars before winning a turning fight with an SU-27/30MKI/37.  Dont buy into the hype that the Eagle is the world's best combat proven aircraft.  The USAF can thank the Israelis for the bulk of the air-to-air kills against the great airforces of Syria for that and Hussein's pity-party of an "airforce" for the bulk of US Eagle kills.  All hype.

When the Su-27's got close, the F-14D's broke formation and rode the tails of the Su-27's. There was a big party aboard the carrier that night with gun camera footage being shown.

Still have trouble believing that story.  I did a year on the USS GW as EW division officer and there were never any parties or anything else after a successful mission or whatnot. 

Theres a little more to this story from what I understand though the SU27s pilots were shocked as to how fast the F-14s got behind them.

Can you provide a legitimate reference about the SU-27s harrassing the P-3?  You mentioned something about a Jane's story, but I cant find anything on Jane's anywhere even remotely close to what youre talking about.  I need that to verify what youre saying and what actually happened.  And how could our forces actually tell the Flanker pilots were "shocked"?  Interviews?  X-Ray vision to see thru their helmets and masks, as their eyes bulged out and jaws hanging in disbelief?  What carrier battle group was it?  What exercise?  Again, can you provide a solid reference to back up the quote?

Now the real meat and potatoes question.  Do you think, pilots being equal, an F-15 could take an SU-27 in a 1 v 1 merged dogfight?  You already know my answer, but I want to hear yours.

Later
Sludge

[SUBS17]

Well lets look at it this way the Janes magazine was before the internet in the 80s from where I read about it, as mentioned in the link it was also in another magazine so it was quite a long time ago(incident North Cape and Bear Island) and it won't be on the internet. Both the F-14 and the F-15 back then were different to what they are now both aircraft were newer and so the Glim etc doesn't apply if you compare both aircraft. So if you compare an F-15 from back then to an SU27 back then my answer is the F-15 would win because of the technological advantage that the F-15 had over the SU27 and also the pilots were better trainned and did alot more flying than the Soviet counter parts. Just to give you an idea of how those SU27s performed aircombat wise then look at the Eritrea vs Ethiopea war which was SU27s vs Mig29s and how they handled eventhough the missiles were export versions practically all radar guiding AAMs failed and most A/A kills were with IR missiles or guns. Now days SU27s are a different aircraft and the SU30MKI,35s, 37s etc are much closer to what western aircraft have as far as electronics etc. As for the legitamacy of that story it was during the cold war so it could have been propaganda for all we know as far as I'm concerned it is just a good story I read but I have no trouble in believeing it considering the F-14 pilots also did alot of trainning back in those days particularly with dogfighting.

[Sludge]

Subs...

So if you compare an F-15 from back then to an SU27 back then my answer is the F-15 would win because of the technological advantage that the F-15 had over the SU27 and also the pilots were better trainned and did alot more flying than the Soviet counter parts.

I disagree with your premises, w/the facts that the Soviets were not poorly trained, had "off boresight" systems when the US knew nothing of the sort, AND the SU-27 could turn with anything except an F-16 at max corner speed.  The Russians provided very good expertise (albeit "mercenary" expertise) in your afforementioned "Eritrea vs. Ethiopea" war.

Here's an article (excerpt from AirForces Monthly magazine, volume August 2000 w/conclusion) that shoots down the "export" version of missiles, holds up your theory of in-close missile engagements (they were Russian R-73/AA-11 Archers) and supports my contention that the SU-27 is a great in-close "merged" dogfigher (SU-27 "OWNED" MiG-29s in the E-E air war).  It also shows what a difference the Russian trainers made FOR the Ethiopian air forces.  Once the Ruskies pulled chocks, the Ethiopian airforce fell apart.

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=138&Itemid=47

Later
Sludge

[SUBS17]

But the other point to note here is that the SU27 at the time was quite new so I doubt that they had fully discovered its capabilitys either that or the pilots may have been new to the aircraft and less inclined to pull any fancy manouvers. BTW Soviets didn't invent the Cobra manouver either the Sweedes did. Its nothing new since it was done at air shows since the 1960s the Cobra turn and the Kulbit seem the better moves to use for a dogfight. It would be cool to be able to pull this in a flight sim without scripting and with an advanced flight model such as the SU25T in Lockon or the VRS F/A-18E in FSX have quite advanced FM that are not scripted. The cool thing about the VRS SH is being able to do the Pirouette which is a very useful move in a dogfight. I'd expect when ED does a DCS Mig29 or SU27 then you'll definately see some interesting dogfights as it is in LO you push K at the right parameters to execute the cobra although it is scripted it still looks cool. In LO you also have the Helmet Mounted Sight so you can do off boresight shots with the R73(up to 67 deg). I think you'll have alot of fun with LO just remember to buy a Trakir otherwise you'll learn the hard way like I did in MP.

The question nowdays is which is better the F22 or the T50?

 

[wilycoyote4]

At the risk of being both off topic and disrespectful by posting a report of a payware FSX native SU-27 about to be released I offer the info as there are so many discussions in this thread of the SU-27.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=40309

announcement made 26 July

[SUBS17]

That'll make a good target for the VRS Superhornet when the tacpack is released.

[Sludge]

Wily...

Actually, I think its a good posting, cause it will be good to dogfight against the Sludge Hornet and the VRS and see what the results are.  Granted the SU-27 and the Sludge Hornet dont have a "bullseye" to call shots from, but we can do visual calls (ie, "Hornet 2, fox 2 kill Flanker, left hand turn 22k.") when in a multiplayer session.

BTW, Subs... Ill take the Flanker and toast you in a dogfight in a multiplayer session.  I'll even use FRAPS, so everyone here can throw in their opinion on the "validity" of my shot calls when I make them.

Later
Sludge

[Razgriz]

BTW, Subs... Ill take the Flanker and toast you in a dogfight in a multiplayer session.  I'll even use FRAPS, so everyone here can throw in their opinion on the "validity" of my shot calls when I make them.

Later
Sludge

This man doesn't lie, I thought I was hot shit and he smokes me 3/4 times.

[SUBS17]

Wily...

Actually, I think its a good posting, cause it will be good to dogfight against the Sludge Hornet and the VRS and see what the results are.  Granted the SU-27 and the Sludge Hornet dont have a "bullseye" to call shots from, but we can do visual calls (ie, "Hornet 2, fox 2 kill Flanker, left hand turn 22k.") when in a multiplayer session.

BTW, Subs... Ill take the Flanker and toast you in a dogfight in a multiplayer session.  I'll even use FRAPS, so everyone here can throw in their opinion on the "validity" of my shot calls when I make them.

Later
Sludge

Sure how about F4AF then you can still have your SU27 if you like.

[Sludge]

Subs...

Sure, Ill have to buy and fly with those programs for a little while and get used to them, then see how I connect online, no problem.  Until then, what about a weekend FSX session?  Ill fly against ya with the Sludge and you can take the VRS.  Since I know the VRS and it has a realistic flight model along with g-limiter, any kill calls I make will have to be backed up by FRAPS video.  Specifically, the CURRENT and MAX-G that we both agree to beforehand.  If you want, we can go 7.5 for starters.  I know that the VRS can go beyond 7.5 every now and then, but Im cool with 7.5 MAX G.  Anything more on my part "invalidates" my kill calls.

Later
Sludge

[SUBS17]

My PC is quite slow with very slow frame rates in FSX even in mp its quite bad but F4AF it runs quite smooth often me and other guys from SVN do dogfights with 2 vs 4, 6, or 8 migs gunzonly and the FPS is still quite good. I'm hoping to save up for a new PC next year and maybe then my PC will run FSX better.

[Sludge]

SUBS...

You ready to fight it out?  Will meet you on the multi whenever you want, you can take whatever you want and I'll take the Sludge.  I'll have FRAPS loaded up to my missile button, so I have to validate my kill calls in that manner.  What is a good max-G for you?  I'll start with 7.5 if you want?  And I have to call "guns, guns" or "fox 2 close" as my v/vector crosses your flight path?  For you, if you take the VRS, all you have to do is give me a screen shot with me "IN LAR" ("IN Launch Acceptability Region", I think), meaning if you pull the trigger, its a guns kill.  We can take off from Nellis and use the Red Flag range, using a hard deck of 10k and blocks up to 30k?  Fair?  Also, do you know military rules for being "in the blocks" (blue air, 5-9s; red air, 0-4s)?

BTW, here is a real world example of how pilot's use gun camera footage to validate kill calls.  Hence the real world meaning of "camera's on, tape's on... fight's on."

Especially watch from 1:28 to 4:50, the guy gives one of the best dogfight HUD video breakdowns that Ive seen on the YouTube or the 'Net.  Actually, this whole video series (Red October) is great.  The only time Ive seen better is when I was a ABM student debriefing the ACMI at Tyndall AFB with F-15 students and their instructors... very humbling watching ACMI results.  No arguments, only valid or in-valid kill calls.

In case you can't tell, I'm just itchin' for a dogfight, been beatin' down people left and right on the multi... hell, I haven't had someone get on my six and stay there anything more than passing, except after I called "knock-it-off" and rolled in for a landing to get gas.  Its worse than the time that kid harrassed people over Edwards with his "better than everyone else" F-16.  He had no idea how to really dogfight in it, and was just getting on people's six and calling kills, so I kindly whupped up on him, and he quit by dropping his gear and getting in a landing config.

Can you tell, I'm ready?!  Haha...  Enjoy the pic, where I forced this annoying, harrassing kid down, and he logged off.
Anyway, let me know if you're up for it?

Later
Sludge