Author Topic: No ILS in FSCommander  (Read 13007 times)

peacedivision

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 35
No ILS in FSCommander
« on: February 03, 2010, 07:31:29 am »
Noticed a small issue today after updating the FSC database, PHNL now shows no ILS for any runways.  The ILS is still there in sim, works fine and shows on the map within FSX, only seems to be a problem with FSC.  All other FSDT airports display correctly.

No approaches at PHNL
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/171/noils.jpg

KFLL as correct example, all other FSDT airports display as such.
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1808/kfllils.jpg

Thanks!
-Sam
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 08:07:22 am by virtuali »

virtuali

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51367
    • VIRTUALI Sagl
Re: No ILS in FSCommander
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 08:12:02 am »
That's obviously a mistake by FSC, since FS9/X doesn't require to duplicate Navaids and Approaches inside an airport AFCAD. And in fact, you confirmed yourself that they work in the sim.

There's no point to copy that data from the default scenery, if it hasn't changed so, PHNL AFCAD doesn't contain any Navaids and Approaches.

Other utilities, like AFCAD, are smart enough to know this and, they always show the Navaids for the area around the airport, coming from the default scenery files. If FSC doesn't do this, it's a design shortcoming.

peacedivision

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 35
Re: No ILS in FSCommander
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2010, 08:32:10 am »
Thanks! I will report the issue on the FSC forum as well.

-Sam

Steve Waite

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: No ILS in FSCommander
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2012, 07:02:35 pm »
it's a design shortcoming.

Actually you missed the nav designations off the runway records so the runway records actually point to NO NAVS which is a design shortcoming of the airport.
You don't need to include the navdataa file with the airport but you should always state the nav designations for the runways if they have them.

http://www.codelegend.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=231

Thanks
Steve

virtuali

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51367
    • VIRTUALI Sagl
Re: No ILS in FSCommander
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2012, 10:24:17 pm »
Actually you missed the nav designations off the runway records so the runway records actually point to NO NAVS which is a design shortcoming of the airport.
You don't need to include the navdataa file with the airport but you should always state the nav designations for the runways if they have them.

There's no requirement to copy ILS data into the runway of an addon AFCAD, just as there's no requirement for Navaids, FSX will use the ILS of the underlying stock scenery.

In fact, as the user confirmed "The ILS is still there in sim, works fine and shows on the map within FSX" so, I repeat this is a design shortcoming of navigation products that don't replicate the FSX standard behavior exactly.

And, as I've said in my previous message, not ALL programs are being fooled by this method. Both AFX and ADE will show ALL default stock Navaids INCLUDING ILS, when opening the FSDT PHNL AFCAD. And this is a more correct representation of what would appear in FSX while flying.

So, the real question is not why there are no ILS at PHNL, because they clearly works in FSX but, why some addons programs behave like FSX and display ILS coming from the default scenery together with the custom AFCAD, and others don't.

I agree that working with data coming from multiple AFCADs at the same time is more complex. GSX, for example, has the same shortcoming, it works only with self-contained AFCAD, it doesn't really support overlays with (for example) parking informations coming from the stock scenery and taxiways coming from an addon AFCAD. But we recognize this being a GSX limitation, I wouldn't say developers using these methods are "wrong" or made something not correct.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 10:28:03 pm by virtuali »

johannvr

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: No ILS in FSCommander
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2013, 09:24:58 pm »
Hallo Umberto,

I know this is long since your reply on this, but just a suggestion. All that has to be done in the addon AFCAD files is the ILS IDENT for the particular runway must have that ILS identification filled in. Then FSCommander and other programs will read the navaid (ILS) data for that runway and link it to the addon scenery afcad file. Your afcad files (PHNL, for example) have ILS IDENT all blank. All I did was to fill in the ILS Ident info (IHNL for rwy08L) using Airport Facilitator X and problem solved. FSCommander now list all ILS data.

Johann

virtuali

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51367
    • VIRTUALI Sagl
Re: No ILS in FSCommander
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2013, 11:28:57 pm »
Your afcad files (PHNL, for example) have ILS IDENT all blank. All I did was to fill in the ILS Ident info (IHNL for rwy08L) using Airport Facilitator X and problem solved. FSCommander now list all ILS data.

That's exactly what I've said in my last reply. The AFCAD don't duplicate data that is coming from the FSX default scenery, because that's how FSX WORKS and it's supposed to work: if a scenery doesn't RE-define a navaid in from the default scenery, it shouldn't copy any data from it, creating unneeded duplication, because FSX IS able to merge data from different AFCADs at once, and this is made for the obvious reason of modularity and ease of update.

Suppose the navaid had to be changed, because of a navdata update cycle: with our approach, it would be enough to update the ONE file where the affected navaid was present.

If we (and if everybody else) duplicated the data, you would have to chase for that navaid into each scenery that copied it from the default, resulting in a much more complex procedure to update navaids. That's why, Microsoft probably designed the AFCAD system that way, to make it easier to update them.

In this case, if the ID changed in the actual navaid file, but not in the runway, it would cause problems unless you remember to update both, and it would be a mess if you have many 3rd party airports, each one with duplicated data from the default scenery that became obsolete that must be all checked and fixed.

It would be just wrong to start duplicating data when we don't have to, just to fix a shortcoming of a flight planner that is confused by a data structure which is 100% legal in FSX itself.

johannvr

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: No ILS in FSCommander
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 03:30:59 pm »
The AFCAD don't duplicate data that is coming from the FSX default scenery, because that's how FSX WORKS and it's supposed to work: if a scenery doesn't RE-define a navaid in from the default scenery, it shouldn't copy any data from it, creating unneeded duplication, because FSX IS able to merge data from different AFCADs at once, and this is made for the obvious reason of modularity and ease of update.

Suppose the navaid had to be changed, because of a navdata update cycle: with our approach, it would be enough to update the ONE file where the affected navaid was present.

If we (and if everybody else) duplicated the data, you would have to chase for that navaid into each scenery that copied it from the default, resulting in a much more complex procedure to update navaids. That's why, Microsoft probably designed the AFCAD system that way, to make it easier to update them.

In this case, if the ID changed in the actual navaid file, but not in the runway, it would cause problems unless you remember to update both, and it would be a mess if you have many 3rd party airports, each one with duplicated data from the default scenery that became obsolete that must be all checked and fixed.

It would be just wrong to start duplicating data when we don't have to, just to fix a shortcoming of a flight planner that is confused by a data structure which is 100% legal in FSX itself.

Hallo Umberto,

Again I am replying to an old topic, but after the last Hawaii scenery updates in December 2013 (thank you) and FSCommander again do not list these ILS's, I have to reply again.
I want to point out your AFCAD files DO duplicate data from the FSX default scenery, all add on scenery AFCADS I have, does. All the navaid data is in your AFCAD bgl file, just as it is in the default FSX one.
All your, and other scenery developers' AFCAD files have the applicable runway ILS Ident info and the navaid data in it and IS "duplicating" the FSX default scenery, as you put it. It is only some of your Hawaii scenery AFCAD files that don't have this ILS Ident data, causing a very nice flight planner not to show the ILS info.

If a navaid should change, there is no complex procedure, only update the one applicable addon AFCAD file, no "chasing for that navaid into each scenery that copied it from the default".

As you know, FSX reads the addon scenery according to priority, so the file with highest priority will be displayed. So does FSCommander. It's not a "shortcoming of a flight planner" if it ignores the default, reads the addon AFCAD at higher priority,  sees no ILS Identification linked to a runway and then don't display the ILS.

I thus fail to see it's "just wrong to start duplicating data" because you and all scenery/AFCAD developers already do it anyway. All I ask is just for the AFCAD developer of this Hawaii scenery to add the runway ILS Ident info with a next update. I did it to the PHNL AFCAD on my side and just took me about a minute. (while I was waiting for the wingwalker to get on the tow truck and clear the way so we can start taxi   :) )

Have a prosperous new year

Johann




virtuali

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51367
    • VIRTUALI Sagl
Re: No ILS in FSCommander
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2014, 09:53:17 pm »
Again I am replying to an old topic, but after the last Hawaii scenery updates in December 2013 (thank you) and FSCommander again do not list these ILS's, I have to reply again.

We haven't changed anything in the AFCAD files, I've checked all of them, and none is newer than end of 2012.

Quote
I want to point out your AFCAD files DO duplicate data from the FSX default scenery, all add on scenery AFCADS I have, does. All the navaid data is in your AFCAD bgl file, just as it is in the default FSX one.

No, they don't.

You are mislead thinking that we might have duplicated FSX navaids, because ADE or AFX will SHOW you those navaids when you load our AFCAD. But they are NOT coming from our AFCAD, they come from the FSX default scenery, that's why the AFX, for example, will indicate those navaids as "Stock", because they DO NOT come from the AFCAD you just opened.

Quote
All your, and other scenery developers' AFCAD files have the applicable runway ILS Ident info and the navaid data in it and IS "duplicating" the FSX default scenery, as you put it. It is only some of your Hawaii scenery AFCAD files that don't have this ILS Ident data, causing a very nice flight planner not to show the ILS info.

Of all runways of all 5 Hawaii airports ( PHLI, PHKO, PHTO, PHOG and PHNL ), there are ONLY 2 ILS included in our AFCAD, ALL of them DO NOT have any ILS or any other navaid, they all come from FSX.

And of course, there's a sound reason for this, we haven't "duplicated" those two, they have been modified, sometimes slightly moved, sometimes because the heading wasn't entirely right or for any other reason where the default data didn't work.

Quote
If a navaid should change, there is no complex procedure, only update the one applicable addon AFCAD file, no "chasing for that navaid into each scenery that copied it from the default".

If updated navaids are duplicated, you must duplicate your update work for each scenery that duplicated them. That's why it's wrong to duplicate data.

Quote
As you know, FSX reads the addon scenery according to priority, so the file with highest priority will be displayed. So does FSCommander

No, there are EXCLUSION rules.

Something on a higher priority will hide something below it ONLY if the higher level AFCAD contains an Exclusion command with the bits active for certain object class (navaids, buildings, approaches, jetways, etc.), FSCommander is just *ignoring* the Exclusion commands altogether, and consider an higher priority to automatically exclude everything below it, but that's not how FSX works. FSX will display *everything* that hasn't been explicitly excluded, coming from many files at the same time.

Quote
It's not a "shortcoming of a flight planner" if it ignores the default, reads the addon AFCAD at higher priority,  sees no ILS Identification linked to a runway and then don't display the ILS.

Yes, it's a shortcoming of that program, because it doesn't recognize something that is legal for FSX. As I've said, even GSX has that shortcoming: it only takes data for a single AFCAD at time, it doesn't work with "partial" AFCAD files. But I'm admitting that IS a GSX shortcoming, and we'll probably going to fix it, because partial AFCADs are a legit programming method.

However, this shortcoming is less severe for GSX, since for a ground operation program, it's enough an AFCAD contains parkings and taxiways, and GSX can work with it. It's far more serious for a Flight planning program, because NOT duplicating Navaids is FAR more common than using partial AFCAD that don't contain parking/taxiway data and rely on the default airport.

Quote
I thus fail to see it's "just wrong to start duplicating data" because you and all scenery/AFCAD developers already do it anyway

No, we don't. Except when they ARE different from default.

Quote
. All I ask is just for the AFCAD developer of this Hawaii scenery to add the runway ILS Ident info with a next update. I did it to the PHNL AFCAD on my side and just took me about a minute.

Then take 5 minutes and do it for the other 4. I firmly believe it's wrong duplicating identical data, just to work with a single 3rd party program that needs it.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 10:06:46 pm by virtuali »

johannvr

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: No ILS in FSCommander
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2014, 09:15:23 am »
Umberto,

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I checked and I must admit you are correct. I did a few test (played) with various default AFCADs, using AFX, and saw all my modified and newly saved AFCAD show the navaid AND the ILS Ident info as it is in default. I just wonder why your Hawaii AFCADs do not show the ILS Ident data from default and will we really duplicate things if we fill it in?  But anyway, I will leave it there and do the "amendmends" where and if necessary.

Johann