Author Topic: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?  (Read 51455 times)

virtuali

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2008, 05:06:25 am »
Could you please just post your *recommended* settings for FS9/FSX for this scenery (for High/Low end systems), like you did when you/Kappa gave me your .cfg file(s)? 

If there was a "magic" FSX.CFG that would work well with every machine, on every combination of addons, on every combination of hardware, drivers, OTHER software outside flight installed, bios settings,  etc, it wouldn't be necessary to even have sliders to begin with: just the "magic" FSX.CFG preset for everyone.

Also, everyone has his own idea of visual quality versus fps versus important/unimportant things to turn on or off. THAT'S why there are settings.

So, it's just pointless asking for a "magic" FSX setting that would work for everyone. Also, there are just countless of other factors external that the FSX.CFG wouldn't solve.

And, anyway, I think I've already posted my fsx.cfg after YOUR request in an older thread so, it's even more pointless to repost it again. Not that it might do much difference, if the rest of the setting are wrong.

However, it's not the point. The point is than another USER (Ray), with a very low-end machine, was clearly able to get better quality than the Avsim's reviewer. I posted my screenshots just as a reference as it should look like on a more proper FSX PC, but the fact was already apparent with Ray screenshots.

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The KJFK package has a few, shall we say *gremlins*, that aren't showing up on your test machines but are still unresolved on the open market.

The first screenshot that clearly showed much better quality than Avsim's, WAS NOT posted by me. I started posting my screenshot just now, because in the last one the difference was just striking and speaks for itself.

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Like Colin, I want my purchased product to work as advertised.

The product is advertized with the demo, much better than any review or advertising could do. The point of having a demo, is to allow people to evaluate the scenery on THEIR OWN setup, so we have already exposed ourself way better than any review could do, good or bad.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 05:14:03 am by virtuali »

JamesChams

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2008, 06:35:43 pm »
Mr. Umberto "Virtuali" Colapicchioni,

I see that *we* are continuing to have "circular arguments" over stories of *magic* fixes and other rubbish.

So, let me be plain - advertise the recommended Graphic card settings and FSX display settings based on your development tests so that people don't always have to play around with each and every setting, when a product is purchased.  Please do that in the manuals as NO one reading these forums for the first time might find that information easily.

Next,  I get better quality images than Mr. Nick Churchill on three 47-inch screens at a resolution of 3840x1024 (32bit Color); So I know that the product is beautiful - What *we* hope you'll do is give people a setting range to shoot for and expected graphic card settings that were used to develop and test the scenery.  Your "current" way just puts people in the Test-Drivers seat in hopes that they will figure it out for themselves or live with the disappointment of not doing so.  In my humble opinion, a bad Idea for a marketing strategy, which results in a lower sales volumes.

Just a thought:  If you do this it will workout many of the unnecessary (simple fixes) posts requesting support for things that can easily be fixed by a simple read of the manual.  And then you'll have more time to deal with the major issues and build new packages.  Many other developers are doing that and its been much easier to install and use their sceneries within minutes without all the other hassle involved; so why is it so difficult to include this for your scenery packages/manuals?

I can only hope you'll will see my point and not continue to argue yours by bringing in life's realities as reasons/excuses for why you did this or that - No one cares; *we* just want a potential solution and, not a lesson in development; and a product that works without having to fight with it to make it work.

PS: The Trial/Demo should only be for a tour, before-you-buy, and not what your using it for; to have people beta test-drive the software and come to you for fixes.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 06:38:08 pm by JamesChams »
"Walk with the wise and become wise; associate with fools and get in trouble.” (Prov.13:20 NIV)
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thepilot

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2008, 06:43:07 pm »
Another comparison, which I think close the question beyond any doubt:

KJFK 4L from the Avsim review:



KFJK 4L on my PC:


I'm sorry to say this but neither of these screenshots are convincing. It could be a lot sharper...

Ray

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2008, 06:54:46 pm »
I'm sorry to say this but neither of these screenshots are convincing. It could be a lot sharper...

The issue is not about what is more convincing to you, it is about the difference between the screenshots! Also may I recommend to reread Virtuali's posts in this thread, he explains why there some ground textures look sharper than others!

I never felt a single time like a beta tester with FSDT's released products.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 07:04:03 pm by Ray »

Alessandro

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2008, 07:11:24 pm »
Guys, the ground on FSX version of JFK is rendered with photoreal texture (the same tecnique used on standard terrain on FSX) and have a resolution of 0.39 Meter for pixel. To visualize the terrain on full resolution is necessary set the slide of terrain resolution at 30 cm/pixel. If the PC is slow, and has blur on fsx standard terrain, the same problem is presents on JFK terrain ....

Alessandro.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 07:22:22 pm by Alessandro »

thepilot

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2008, 07:38:41 pm »
I'm sorry to say this but neither of these screenshots are convincing. It could be a lot sharper...

The issue is not about what is more convincing to you, it is about the difference between the screenshots! Also may I recommend to reread Virtuali's posts in this thread, he explains why there some ground textures look sharper than others!

I never felt a single time like a beta tester with FSDT's released products.

I kinda understand the difficulty, but the results stays the same, doesn't it?

virtuali

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2008, 10:01:08 pm »
I'm sorry to say this but neither of these screenshots are convincing. It could be a lot sharper...

But this is NOT the polint. At all.

The point is not to discuss how sharper might be JFK. I think to have already explained why there's an ILLUSION of being less sharp compared to KORD, although they have the SAME ground resolution (I even think KORD is *slightly* less). Please, re-read my explanation about this.

The ground terrain already takes more than 100MB of VRAM, and that's JUST for the basic photo background. There will be buildings, markings, vehicles, signals and of course, the *rest* of the scenery around, the landclass textures, the AI textures, the users airplane textures, the VC textures, the gauge textures. All of this HAVE to fit into the video RAM. If it doesn't, the frame rate will COLLAPSE, because of the continuing swapping between main ram and vram.

If the ground res were, let's say, at 20 cm instead that the current 39, the memory taken  JUST by photo background would have about 4 times more, around 400MB. JUST for the base photo background!

There's no need to point out other sceneries around, and complaing about being sharper. They are NOT JFK. They don't have 8 terminals ENTIRELY different (so, no texture reuse, like at KORD), they are not that size, they don't have the same polygon count, they don't stay in the NYC area, which is already almost full even without the airport.

Zurich is sharper ? Yes, it is. And Geneva will be EVEN MORE, because we simply use the available hardware resources as best as we can. If JFK had a single runway, or just 3 terminals the looked all the same, or was in the middle of an otherwise sparse area, or had the ground made in concrete so it looked better just because of the work of the detail texture, it might have looked probably sharper.

So, the point is not "could JFK being sharper than it is ?", because this is NOT what we are discussing here. We were discussing an Avsim review that made comments, and my screenshots ( and Ray's ) clearly show that JFK is much different compared to what has been shown on Avsim.

thepilot

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2008, 10:34:55 pm »
Yes, I get your point - solution: build some smaller airports  ;) Long Beach, Oakland or Anchorage are the ones I always keep in mind...

SirIsaac726

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2008, 10:46:18 pm »
Yes, I get your point - solution: build some smaller airports  ;) Long Beach, Oakland or Anchorage are the ones I always keep in mind...

*cough* Phoenix *cough* ;D

Anyways, all joking aside, this isn't a solution to what you think the problem is.  That is just a suggestion for the future which it appears as if they aren't doing (but I fully expect the future products of big airports to be just fine).

virtuali

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2008, 10:49:45 pm »
So, let me be plain - advertise the recommended Graphic card settings and FSX display settings based on your development tests

You keep not WANTING to understand...There's NO a general recipe for good results. Because IT DEPENDS on individual PREFERENCES and hardware capabilities.

If an user, for example, doesn't care much for AI, perhaps because he flies online only, he might enjoy much better settings, because he would have the luxury to turn off AI altogether. But if I suggest those settings to everybody, it might look like a slideshow.

Another user might simply not care for absolute sharpness, but always strive for fast fps.

Another user might settle for lower fps, provided the visual quality is high.

And, if you take different users expectations, and MULTIPLY with the different hardware at disposal, the combination are endless, THAT'S why it's not possible to suggest a fixed set of settings for everyone.

AND, if you care to read my initial message in response to Colin, I've ALREADY listed some critical settings that will affect image quality.

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so that people don't always have to play around with each and every setting, when a product is purchased

I'm sorry, but this is also wrong and not possible. It's just impossible to have a fixed setting that would work in every situation, with every scenery. You previously mentioned Greystone as been very fast and looking good on your scenery. I BET IT WOULD!!!! Greystone is a toy scenery, which is not even as complex (in total) like a *single* JFK terminal building, and it stays in an almost empty and flat area, and it doesn't attract basically any AI. I would be surprised if it had any problems, even with most of the sliders to the right. But, of course, if you use the same setting at JFK, no machine would be ever able to run it. And, something like Zurich, would probably sitting in the middle, reaching its best fps/quality compromise with higher settings than JFK, but lower than what Greystone might be able to afford.

So, it's wrong to expect to use the same settings everytime, also because they depend on the type of flying. If I were to fly in the Ultralight at the default Friday Harbour airport for a slow VFR tour, I'll probably use WAY different settings compared to JFK, like cranking up traffic cars, ai boats, autogen, something that I wouldn't do when landing an airliner at JFK.

So, setting ARE meant to be constantly changed. FSX has introduced a nice feature to LOAD/SAVE its settings, which makes the process a lot less painful than it used to be.


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Many other developers are doing that and its been much easier to install and use their sceneries within minutes without all the other hassle involved; so why is it so difficult to include this for your scenery packages/manuals?

I've already explained why you can't put generic settings good for everyone, because everyone usage habits are different, and everyone has different hardware. I prefer letting the user play with the product as they like, and configure the product as they like.

Also, there are plenty of websites, forums discussiones and articles with very deep explanation about system optimizations, what the settings do, how they affect image quality, and such so, it's not that is difficult to get this information out there, if we had to duplicate this info in the manuals, they'll become more a tutorial in flight sim optimization, and become so long that nobody would read it anyway. Believe me, many people simply don't read the manuals. If the did, I wouldn't lose so much time replying dozen of emails each day, just to explain how to retrieve a lost email purchase after a computer crash something that, of course, IS explained on the manual...

Other developers don't have a demo, so I guess they have to put some suggestions on the manual, to reduce the support pressure by people that bought the scenery BEFORE trying it out, and discovering it runs bad on their system, after they purchased it.

Our Demo is made in a SPECIFIC way, that is 100% suited for Flight Sim users. Usually, Trials have an expiration date, like 2 weeks or so. Instead, we allow the user to launch the program an unlimited number of times, just for 5 minutes at a time, which is just about right to try a new setting, see what it does, and restart. And, we don't set any expiry date, because an user might not have the hardware to run the scenery today, but it might have it tomorrow so, he might come back at a later time, and giving it another chance.

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I can only hope you'll will see my point and not continue to argue yours by bringing in life's realities as reasons/excuses for why you did this or that - No one cares;

It's the second time in this thread, that you advice someone in advance not to arguing with you. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way, if there are sound reasons why the reply you get is not the reply you want, I'll keep explaining. You might care or not, but the fact remains.


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*we* just want a potential solution and, not a lesson in development; and a product that works without having to fight with it to make it work.

Asking for a solution, would suggest the existance of a problem. There's no "problem" to begin with. The product clearly WORKS and there's no "fighting" to make it work.

As I've said already, this thread it's NOT about "how JFK is" but is about "how JFK is COMPARED to what Avsim says it is". Not even mentioning that the only thing negative in that review was the ground resolution.

We have already assesed the review commens were generated by the fact the reviewer had a problem with his settings, and I've already listed the most important ones in my first message. My shots and Ray's ones, were simply posted to show the DIFFERENCE between how the scenery normally looks like. The fact the the "good" screenshots were obtained with two very different specs. machines, should tell out that seeing the scenery as blurred as in the Avsim review it's probably the exception rather than the norm so, there would be no need to post "secret" configuration hints because the quality the scenery is designed for doens't look too difficult to achieve.

So, this should have cleared up the topic thread: the Avsim review.

If you want to discuss an entirely different subject, which is not "why Avsim screenshots were blurred" anymore, but has become "why JFK is not sharper than it is" or "what would be the best settings for JFK" or "why the scenery is done like that", in THIS CASE (apart for the fact that this wasn't the original topic), you NEED to have a "lesson in developement", which will help you find YOUR ideal settings ON YOUR OWN, like the old Chinese proverb about teaching a man to fish being better than giving him a fish...



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The Trial/Demo should only be for a tour, before-you-buy, and not what your using it for; to have people beta test-drive the software and come to you for fixes.

Having a demo or not DOES NOT prevent any developer for releasing a product when he THINK is ready. This happens everytime with software, I still have to see ANY software were users don't complain begin "treated as testers" or hasn't been patched, many times.

BUT, having a Demo has an effect on this because, since in our case there's absolutely no difference between the Demo and the full version, it's in our best interest to fix problems as soon as possible and it's not in our best interest to push a product out when it's not ready just to start selling it, because that WILL be appear in the Demo.

JamesChams

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2008, 01:23:08 am »
Mr. Umberto "Virtuali" Colapicchioni,

I already read your posting in response to Colin's Avsim review.  In the time that it took you to write all your arguments in response to mine; you could have posted all those *suggestions* in an updated manual as a "suggested settings fix" or FAQ for users who have blurry textures in the KJFK scenery.

Just plain and simple "Common sense" - That's my point; are *we* getting it?  ??? ::)


PS: If you want to make a "Build" comparison between products, Greystone and KJFK are not what I would choose; Why not FlyTampa's Kai-Tai and KJFK for complexity, hardware/FPS demands, etc.  Then you can post another topic and argue all your points with all the other old ladies that like to do the YAPD here.  *We* just want a default Addon Manager/FS setting in the manuals from which to be guided by for FSDT sceneries; The rest of the users who don't want to read can harrass you and you can continue the same nonsense by re-explaining what's in the manual if you want.  Asking you for anything is getting tiresome when you won't even try to understand what is being asked and provide it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 01:51:52 am by JamesChams »
"Walk with the wise and become wise; associate with fools and get in trouble.” (Prov.13:20 NIV)
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
From,
  James F. Chams


virtuali

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2008, 03:11:14 am »
I already read your posting in response to Colin's Avsim review.  In the time that it took you to write all your arguments in response to mine; you could have posted all those *suggestions* in an updated manual as a "suggested settings fix" or FAQ for users who have blurry textures in the KJFK scenery.

Just plain and simple "Common sense" - That's my point; are *we* getting it?  ??? ::)

Exactly, you are NOT getting it. I've tried to explain why it wouldn't make any sense to describe every possible setting that might (under different conditions might, might not, or might even have the opposite effect) affect the scenery quality in the manual, because the very concept of scenery quality is different for anyone, because everyone has different hardware, other software installed, and simply use Flight Simulator in a different way.


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PS: If you want to make a "Build" comparison between products, Greystone and KJFK are not what I would choose; Why not FlyTampa's Kai-Tai and KJFK for complexity, hardware/FPS demands, etc.

As usual, you don't pay much attention to my posts, because if you did, you would noticed that I haven't used just Greystone as an example, but I also mentioned Zurich as something in between Greystone and JFK.

However, having seen FT Kai-Tak recently, because, since is such a SMALL airport comparing to anything we did, except Graystone, I was able to do the ParkMe file for it in less than 30 minutes (I started doing Aerosoft EGLL and THAT one is big and comparable to our stuff...) and had the chance to look at it closely.

It's WAY smaller in size/complexity than JFK. It's a single runway airport, with two very small terminals, with few parking stands, (not hundreds like JFK).  It LOOKS more complex than it is, because being smaller, everything is closer. We had doubts when doing KORD because, during developement, it seemed that you keep adding stuff, and it kept looking sparse, because of its area. Zurich LOOKED denser, even with LESS objects, because it's more tight, and Kai-Tak it's like that. You simply need less stuff to give the illusion of an higher "perceived" complexity on a smaller place. Geneva will give that impression too, people will think it's more complex than JFK/KORD, even with less objects (much less).

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*We* just want a default Addon Manager/FS setting in the manuals from which to be guided by for FSDT sceneries;

So now you are talking in the plural...the only think that I can say is that, every other user seemed to have got my point, and you are left alone continuing arguing.

I tried to explain, many times already, yet you still fail to understand, there's no such thing as generic suggested settings, without changing the manual into a generic tutorial of everything related to system optimization, graphic technologies, hardware issues, AND flight sim-related concept. ALL of this, multiplied with different user expectations and goals, so such manual should probabably become like a decision tree, sort of "if you are such an user, go read page 28, if you care about fps only, skip this section, if you fly online, go to page 44, if you use 3rd party AI, read this chapter, if you have a firewall, go to section xx". Pure nonsense...


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The rest of the users who don't want to read can harrass you and you can continue the same nonsense by re-explaining what's in the manual if you want.

Since the best reply can be given only by knowing the specific user needs/expectations/habits/hardware at his disposal, etc, etc, etc, the best service to users would be simply reply on the forum or via email, AFTER getting to know all this fact.

It's no use telling to someone "just put the texture slider to Massive", if he has a 128MB card. And this is just *one* very simple example. And I already explained that, considering all the variables involved, the combinations are just too much to be put into a manual.

But yes, if I had to write an 800-pages, 49.99$, "Bible of Flight Simulator optimization" book, (which might be an idea for a possible product), I MIGHT take that approach, trying to cover as much ground as possible.

ThomasKaira

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2008, 03:56:07 am »
 *sigh*

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« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 03:59:17 am by ThomasKaira »

coolcolin09

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Re: KJFK Review on avsim.com - Dispraise?
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2008, 04:07:34 am »
I'm going to amend my review in regards to the aprons/tarmacs. I overlooked what I said there by saying "tarmacs horrible as well" in my review. As I said earlier, I love the aprons, so that will be changed. However, after messing with the settings according to your recommendations, I see only slight differences; not nearly enough improvement to change my mind about the taxiways.

I am building a new PC in a week or two, so I will certainly see what it looks like then, as well.

My questions is; and this is in no way a complaint, simply a curiosity: How have scenery creators such as FlyTampa been able to produce such incredibly high-quality ground textures across whole airports? I get higher frame rates on FlyTampa in San Francisco, Miami, Dubai, and Boston than I do with your FSDT JFK.

Any who; I will have certain parts of the review changed by this weekend. I'll be checking this thread a couple times a day until then if you guys want to continue discussing it.

Thanks!

coolcolin09

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