FSDreamTeam forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: FLIGHTCOMPANY on January 06, 2012, 04:44:37 am
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I heard that P3D V2 is coming out with a rumored DX11 support. Just a question, will V2 be priced more reasonably for the public? $500 seems to high for me.
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There have been rumors that there will be a price drop for the "enthusiast" either way, if it means that FSX will be fixed and maintained, it may be the way to go as Flight has proved dissapointing. (so far)
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Will there be a change in the EULA that actually allows for the "enthusiast"?
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They need to take advantage of Flight's seemingly failed "Simulator". If P3D can price their sim for the public, then I would love to move to their sim. I like FSX but I can't even complete a flight without a stupid CTD.
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You can purchase the Developer license, which is just 9.99$/mo, but can be canceled at any time:
http://www.prepar3d.com/partners-overview/developer-network-program/
As they say:
Anyone can join the Prepar3D® Developer Network Program. No matter if you are a seasoned developer, or just starting out, we want to encourage you to develop for Prepar3D.
I guess that making your own AFCAD using the free tools available, and posting it on the web, could qualify as a someone that is "starting out" as a developer...
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That's just spinning the wording to skirt what the EULA actually says. I'm surprised developers are facilitating ways to work the EULA when they themselves most assuredly have their own EULA that I'm sure they wish to be followed to the letter. Why is the add-on partners EULA important to follow when the P3D EULA is apparently not? Not that I have a dog in this race, but none of this makes any sense to me.
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That's just spinning the wording to skirt what the EULA actually says.
This is what LM is saying on their own website, which is obviously their own responsibility if it's legally compatible with the EULA or not, but as long the product is advertised as such, there's nothing in the Developer program presentation that excludes the example I've mentioned.
Since LM surely has a legal team that checks everything that is written on their website before publishing it (a beginner developer purchasing the subscription might complain if the product advertisement wasn't fully compatible with the EULA), the only logical conclusion is that they believe the EULA covers such cases too.
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Yes, but creating an AFCAD simply as a means to classify yourself as a developer so that the other 99.99% of the time you use the product for something that the EULA (also written directly on their website) is prohibited. That is the spinning part, not what they have posted on their website. My point is if they don't care if people are using it for their own personal consumption, and not for the primary purpose of development, why isn't the EULA changed? The EULA also says that it can be used on only one computer at a time. Is that a rule we can break too? Just isn't adding up.
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Yes, but creating an AFCAD simply as a means to classify yourself as a developer so that the other 99.99% of the time you use the product
You can easily say, and it's generally true, than before you might be able to create an AFCAD, especially from scratch so you wont include anyone elses code, you have to use the product for quite some time, to learn it properly. Nowhere they say that previous experience with FSX, or any other flight simulator program, is required to join the program.
And, nowhere they say you can't subscribe just to evaluate your chance to eventually become a professional developer, they would have provided a different (time-limited) subscription, or a trial version, if evaluation needs weren't covered by that program.
It's a very broad license, and LM has been very clever to set it up that way, which really means the only requirement to join the developer program, is to have a credit card...
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I guess I will simply have to submit myself to never understanding the logic then. The EULA has to be strictly adhered to, unless it's generally accepted that you don't. It appears that the community as a whole has collectively decided that in this case we don't, and so it shall be. I myself will probably stick to following the EULA as it is written, just as I do with your software, and that of the other developers I do business with. Guess I'm old fashioned that way. ;D
At any rate, thanks for the discussion.
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Aaron, here's a quote from John Nicole one of the team members from LM's P3D. This should help you understand their position a bit better.
"Just to be clear (and trying not to sound defensive!). Anyone can purchase Prepar3D. We do not sell it as an entertainment product and the EULA talks about that, which means that it will not be appearing on the shelves of Best Buy next to Call of Duty any time soon..... I am not sure where the rumour started that we sell only to certain people, but anyone can buy it. It isn't about consumers, but end-use. If you are a pilot, simulation user, student, whatever and want to use it for familiarization, training, taxiing over bugs then go for it. If you are 10 or 110 it doesn't matter. If you want to use it at an arcade game, then buy something else. You can go to our website and purchase it with a credit card and download it. The commercial license version is $499 and we have added a considerable amount of features and made a lot of bug fixes to the code that we were fortunate enough to procure from Microsoft. A list of features can be found on our website at www.prepar3D.com. We certainly have added in bathymetry data to allow the use of submersibles and we have added in a few features for hard-core users that they should find interesting including true multi-channel (spreads the load of the image generator across multiple PCs), update to DirectInput 8 to allow up to 32 axes and 128 buttons per joystick, sensor views (night vision and infra-red), updated landclasses, GPS upgrades and so on. We have also updated and improved the SDK documentation and added more samples for developers. We are also going to be releasing an update version 1.2 of Prepar3D and the SDK in the next few weeks.
Those that are looking to test, integrate, develop, investigate etc and therefore do not require a full commercial license can subscribe for $9.95 per month and receive 2 copies of the software. That is an option that many people are taking and I would be glad to see more people come on board and see what they can do with the app! There are no restrictions to joining the developer network.
If people are using Prepar3D for commercial activities, then switching to the commercial license is appropriate and required.
For Victor, sorry that the website isn't clear enough. I will work with Lockheed communications to try to get some clarity on that. We are just a bunch of engineers and not necessarily the best at marketing!!"
Regards,
John Nicol
Prepar3D.
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Thanks for that post, and I'm happy to read that they seem to be on board with a wider audience than what the EULA seems to indicate. My issue is that a forum posting from one of the team members is not what would be used in a lawsuit concerning any license infringements, the EULA itself would be. That's it's purpose for existing. To clearly outline it's intended use, and to serve as support for enforcement where appropriate. So if what John has written below is how they see their product being used, then their EULA should reflect it. And until their legal documentation supports what they are posting in the forums I'm just a little confused how 3rd party vendors can release product against it.
Again, I'll let it go as I'm clearly in the minority, but I have found a fair amount of irony in how their EULA is being interpreted versus how other EULA infringements are interpreted.
Also, thanks for allowing the frank discussion about it as some other forums have not been quite as flexible. Some completely shut it down, others simply don't respond at all and it's nice to at least have some adult dialog about it.
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Thanks for that post, and I'm happy to read that they seem to be on board with a wider audience than what the EULA seems to indicate. My issue is that a forum posting from one of the team members is not what would be used in a lawsuit concerning any license infringements, the EULA itself would be. That's it's purpose for existing. To clearly outline it's intended use, and to serve as support for enforcement where appropriate. So if what John has written below is how they see their product being used, then their EULA should reflect it. And until their legal documentation supports what they are posting in the forums I'm just a little confused how 3rd party vendors can release product against it.
Again, I'll let it go as I'm clearly in the minority, but I have found a fair amount of irony in how their EULA is being interpreted versus how other EULA infringements are interpreted.
Yep, well it is what it is as they say. Although you could always look at it like this, one you download the program, install it and use it, no one from LM will ever know what you are doing with it or how you are using it. It's not like they are watching you on a web cam to see if you are using it for fun, training or actually developing for it. However, it's only up to you and if you feel it's too risky to get involved with due to the fact that you feel you aren't using it the way its intended despite what John Nicol posted.
I personally haven't used the platform yet as I am getting ready to do a whole computer upgrade sometime in the near future and am very happy with the way FSX performs on my current set up, so I imagine I will only be happier after my next build/upgrade. At some point in the future maybe they will sell another type of license that will appeal to a wide audience of simmers and word the EULA differently so that people dont need to be so concerned about it. Maybe if/when it becomes more mainstream and there are even greated benefits to using it over FSX then I will take a look at it as well.
Also, thanks for allowing the frank discussion about it as some other forums have not been quite as flexible. Some completely shut it down, others simply don't respond at all and it's nice to at least have some adult dialog about it.
This isn't the ORBX forum where topics get locked or deleted and a fairly rapid rate if they aren't endorsed by the ORBX personal. Umberto and his team are pretty lenient about what we can discuss here as long as it doesn't get out of control with a bunch of foul language and personal attacks.
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Aaron,
If you don't feel comfortable about the EULA for the $9.99 version then you can always buy the $499 version and clear your conscience. The point I'm trying to make is that prepar3d is giving you a choice. ;)
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Yeah, the 9.99 is nice but I am that person who likes one time purchases. Hopefully overtime as more simmers join, P3D might lower their commercial price.
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I am not a commercial user either. That's my point. The EULA does not cover our use, but we seem to be bending the wording of the EULA so that it does. Normally that is not something that is looked upon very highly. Oddly this seems to be an exception in the community.
I agree that hopefully someday they will reword the EULA to cover people like me who admit that their primary use for the license is for personal consumption, and that a lower flat rate will be introduced to support it.
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Normally that is not something that is looked upon very highly. Oddly this seems to be an exception in the community.
If the ones that are supposed to enforce the EULA are saying they have no problem with this, why should you or anyone else ?
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Well im going to sound like an idiot,k but what exactly is Prepare 3d?
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If the ones that are supposed to enforce the EULA are saying they have no problem with this, why should you or anyone else ?
For me the better question is, if those that wrote the EULA are saying they have no problem with it, then why didn't they write the EULA to reflect it?
At any rate, this will be a question for the times for me anyway as FSX serves me well for the moment. If they ever develop a consumer version with a flat rate consumer price I may reconsider. The advances will have to be more profound as well because lets face it, starting from scratch can be a real nightmare.
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This topic is re-beating the beat horse. Poor horse...
The comments from John Nicol from the Prepar3D team have already been posted above, so I need not post them again.
The EULA is exactly that, "End User". Lockheed Martin's EULA will likely not change. Why? Simply by definition. Consumer/Entertainment product = game
Lockheed Martin does not and never will make "games". The EULA is in place to ensure that this definition is clear to users, and developers.
Simply put, if you want a flight simming "game", then Prepar3D is not for you.
If you want a "Flight Simulator" for the purposes of simulating flight, then Prepar3D is for you, and if your developing for such intent then it's also for you. If you are developing other material based on the Prepar3D platform for simulation, such as an ATC simulator or Submariner simulator, than Prepar3D is for you. If you wish to use the Prepar3D platform for a "Sea Battle" game, Prepar3D is not for you.
I hope you see the trend in the above paragraph. It all comes down to your intention of use as the "End User". Do you wish to "simulate" an environment i.e. planes, ships, tanks, etc etc, or play to entertain yourself or others? Most users are trying to capture the experience of flying and learn something that is financially out of reach. In this case, users are employing the platform for non-entertainment purposes, and easily fall within compliance of the EULA. In the end, it is up to you, the "End User" to define your intentions of using Prepar3D. Just remember when you use it or develope for it, that it is not a "game", and can never be used as such.
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Indeed the horse is dead and I shall leave it as such. Now I'm off to finish my flight to Sao Paulo in my 747 in FSX, which by the way can be found in the "game" section of your local electronics store. :P
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and you will never see p3d stocked in the game section.