Products Support > Honolulu FSX/P3D

No ILS in FSCommander

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johannvr:
Hallo Umberto,

I know this is long since your reply on this, but just a suggestion. All that has to be done in the addon AFCAD files is the ILS IDENT for the particular runway must have that ILS identification filled in. Then FSCommander and other programs will read the navaid (ILS) data for that runway and link it to the addon scenery afcad file. Your afcad files (PHNL, for example) have ILS IDENT all blank. All I did was to fill in the ILS Ident info (IHNL for rwy08L) using Airport Facilitator X and problem solved. FSCommander now list all ILS data.

Johann

virtuali:

--- Quote from: johannvr on August 31, 2013, 09:24:58 pm ---Your afcad files (PHNL, for example) have ILS IDENT all blank. All I did was to fill in the ILS Ident info (IHNL for rwy08L) using Airport Facilitator X and problem solved. FSCommander now list all ILS data.
--- End quote ---

That's exactly what I've said in my last reply. The AFCAD don't duplicate data that is coming from the FSX default scenery, because that's how FSX WORKS and it's supposed to work: if a scenery doesn't RE-define a navaid in from the default scenery, it shouldn't copy any data from it, creating unneeded duplication, because FSX IS able to merge data from different AFCADs at once, and this is made for the obvious reason of modularity and ease of update.

Suppose the navaid had to be changed, because of a navdata update cycle: with our approach, it would be enough to update the ONE file where the affected navaid was present.

If we (and if everybody else) duplicated the data, you would have to chase for that navaid into each scenery that copied it from the default, resulting in a much more complex procedure to update navaids. That's why, Microsoft probably designed the AFCAD system that way, to make it easier to update them.

In this case, if the ID changed in the actual navaid file, but not in the runway, it would cause problems unless you remember to update both, and it would be a mess if you have many 3rd party airports, each one with duplicated data from the default scenery that became obsolete that must be all checked and fixed.

It would be just wrong to start duplicating data when we don't have to, just to fix a shortcoming of a flight planner that is confused by a data structure which is 100% legal in FSX itself.

johannvr:

--- Quote from: virtuali on August 31, 2013, 11:28:57 pm ---The AFCAD don't duplicate data that is coming from the FSX default scenery, because that's how FSX WORKS and it's supposed to work: if a scenery doesn't RE-define a navaid in from the default scenery, it shouldn't copy any data from it, creating unneeded duplication, because FSX IS able to merge data from different AFCADs at once, and this is made for the obvious reason of modularity and ease of update.

Suppose the navaid had to be changed, because of a navdata update cycle: with our approach, it would be enough to update the ONE file where the affected navaid was present.

If we (and if everybody else) duplicated the data, you would have to chase for that navaid into each scenery that copied it from the default, resulting in a much more complex procedure to update navaids. That's why, Microsoft probably designed the AFCAD system that way, to make it easier to update them.

In this case, if the ID changed in the actual navaid file, but not in the runway, it would cause problems unless you remember to update both, and it would be a mess if you have many 3rd party airports, each one with duplicated data from the default scenery that became obsolete that must be all checked and fixed.

It would be just wrong to start duplicating data when we don't have to, just to fix a shortcoming of a flight planner that is confused by a data structure which is 100% legal in FSX itself.

--- End quote ---

Hallo Umberto,

Again I am replying to an old topic, but after the last Hawaii scenery updates in December 2013 (thank you) and FSCommander again do not list these ILS's, I have to reply again.
I want to point out your AFCAD files DO duplicate data from the FSX default scenery, all add on scenery AFCADS I have, does. All the navaid data is in your AFCAD bgl file, just as it is in the default FSX one.
All your, and other scenery developers' AFCAD files have the applicable runway ILS Ident info and the navaid data in it and IS "duplicating" the FSX default scenery, as you put it. It is only some of your Hawaii scenery AFCAD files that don't have this ILS Ident data, causing a very nice flight planner not to show the ILS info.

If a navaid should change, there is no complex procedure, only update the one applicable addon AFCAD file, no "chasing for that navaid into each scenery that copied it from the default".

As you know, FSX reads the addon scenery according to priority, so the file with highest priority will be displayed. So does FSCommander. It's not a "shortcoming of a flight planner" if it ignores the default, reads the addon AFCAD at higher priority,  sees no ILS Identification linked to a runway and then don't display the ILS.

I thus fail to see it's "just wrong to start duplicating data" because you and all scenery/AFCAD developers already do it anyway. All I ask is just for the AFCAD developer of this Hawaii scenery to add the runway ILS Ident info with a next update. I did it to the PHNL AFCAD on my side and just took me about a minute. (while I was waiting for the wingwalker to get on the tow truck and clear the way so we can start taxi   :) )

Have a prosperous new year

Johann

virtuali:

--- Quote from: johannvr on January 05, 2014, 03:30:59 pm ---Again I am replying to an old topic, but after the last Hawaii scenery updates in December 2013 (thank you) and FSCommander again do not list these ILS's, I have to reply again.
--- End quote ---

We haven't changed anything in the AFCAD files, I've checked all of them, and none is newer than end of 2012.


--- Quote ---I want to point out your AFCAD files DO duplicate data from the FSX default scenery, all add on scenery AFCADS I have, does. All the navaid data is in your AFCAD bgl file, just as it is in the default FSX one.
--- End quote ---

No, they don't.

You are mislead thinking that we might have duplicated FSX navaids, because ADE or AFX will SHOW you those navaids when you load our AFCAD. But they are NOT coming from our AFCAD, they come from the FSX default scenery, that's why the AFX, for example, will indicate those navaids as "Stock", because they DO NOT come from the AFCAD you just opened.


--- Quote ---All your, and other scenery developers' AFCAD files have the applicable runway ILS Ident info and the navaid data in it and IS "duplicating" the FSX default scenery, as you put it. It is only some of your Hawaii scenery AFCAD files that don't have this ILS Ident data, causing a very nice flight planner not to show the ILS info.
--- End quote ---

Of all runways of all 5 Hawaii airports ( PHLI, PHKO, PHTO, PHOG and PHNL ), there are ONLY 2 ILS included in our AFCAD, ALL of them DO NOT have any ILS or any other navaid, they all come from FSX.

And of course, there's a sound reason for this, we haven't "duplicated" those two, they have been modified, sometimes slightly moved, sometimes because the heading wasn't entirely right or for any other reason where the default data didn't work.


--- Quote ---If a navaid should change, there is no complex procedure, only update the one applicable addon AFCAD file, no "chasing for that navaid into each scenery that copied it from the default".
--- End quote ---

If updated navaids are duplicated, you must duplicate your update work for each scenery that duplicated them. That's why it's wrong to duplicate data.


--- Quote ---As you know, FSX reads the addon scenery according to priority, so the file with highest priority will be displayed. So does FSCommander
--- End quote ---

No, there are EXCLUSION rules.

Something on a higher priority will hide something below it ONLY if the higher level AFCAD contains an Exclusion command with the bits active for certain object class (navaids, buildings, approaches, jetways, etc.), FSCommander is just *ignoring* the Exclusion commands altogether, and consider an higher priority to automatically exclude everything below it, but that's not how FSX works. FSX will display *everything* that hasn't been explicitly excluded, coming from many files at the same time.


--- Quote ---It's not a "shortcoming of a flight planner" if it ignores the default, reads the addon AFCAD at higher priority,  sees no ILS Identification linked to a runway and then don't display the ILS.
--- End quote ---

Yes, it's a shortcoming of that program, because it doesn't recognize something that is legal for FSX. As I've said, even GSX has that shortcoming: it only takes data for a single AFCAD at time, it doesn't work with "partial" AFCAD files. But I'm admitting that IS a GSX shortcoming, and we'll probably going to fix it, because partial AFCADs are a legit programming method.

However, this shortcoming is less severe for GSX, since for a ground operation program, it's enough an AFCAD contains parkings and taxiways, and GSX can work with it. It's far more serious for a Flight planning program, because NOT duplicating Navaids is FAR more common than using partial AFCAD that don't contain parking/taxiway data and rely on the default airport.


--- Quote ---I thus fail to see it's "just wrong to start duplicating data" because you and all scenery/AFCAD developers already do it anyway
--- End quote ---

No, we don't. Except when they ARE different from default.


--- Quote ---. All I ask is just for the AFCAD developer of this Hawaii scenery to add the runway ILS Ident info with a next update. I did it to the PHNL AFCAD on my side and just took me about a minute.
--- End quote ---

Then take 5 minutes and do it for the other 4. I firmly believe it's wrong duplicating identical data, just to work with a single 3rd party program that needs it.

johannvr:
Umberto,

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I checked and I must admit you are correct. I did a few test (played) with various default AFCADs, using AFX, and saw all my modified and newly saved AFCAD show the navaid AND the ILS Ident info as it is in default. I just wonder why your Hawaii AFCADs do not show the ILS Ident data from default and will we really duplicate things if we fill it in?  But anyway, I will leave it there and do the "amendmends" where and if necessary.

Johann

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