GSX+P3DV4+QW787 Refueling Issue

[mseder]

"How you can possibly say "fueling that stopped" being a GSX "issue""
GSX don't send trucks in order to have the refueling-case closed. Read it again...GSX don't ...

"You MIGHT have had a point, if the "fuel stopped" problem happened with the option Enabled. "
The option has been enabled all the time, read my posts!!

Mats

[mseder]

Typically after posting my conclusions earlier and hoping that I've found a solution after some positive tests I again encounter GSX sending the first truck refueling and then sending a second truck accomplishing nothing and message "Fueling completed".

I had to order refueling 3 times before the ordered amount of fuel was in place.

This leaves a 787-user with 2 options

1 Either follow my list of settings (see below) and hope that the refueling might work, but it's unpredictable

- In the plane config
Enable "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling"
- In the GSX Settings
Enable "Always refuel progressively"
Disable "Detect custom aircraft system refueling"

2 Or... follow Umbertos advice and disable the 787 and for sure NEVER have a chance to reach this refueling procedures (see below)

1 Fuel truck arrives
2 A GSX window will offer a list of fuel amounts that you can choose from
3 The tanks are filled progressively, you can watch the FUEL amount increasing in the 787, very nice!
4 Refueling completed and the truck leaves
5 OR... if the fuel amount you asked for is not completed (one truck can't have it all)
6 GSX tells Another fuel truck is on its way
7 Truck nr 2 arrives and completes the refueling

One could of course hope for the FSDT team to investigate this 787/GSX-specific error-behavior and find a fix, but if I understand the approach hear so far, the chances are pretty close to zero. They love to talk about how some things are working rather than speak about solutions to what is not working.

Mats

[virtuali]

"You MIGHT have had a point, if the "fuel stopped" problem happened with the option Enabled. " The option has been enabled all the time, read my posts!!

You just said in your last posts you "cannot Disable it", now you are saying it was Enabled all along when you had the problem, yet you STILL say you "cannot Disable" ?

I hope you'll understand my last reply was about the nonsense about your statement of not being able to Disable it. THAT'S the ONLY thing I question because, again, it doesn't make any sense.

[virtuali]

2 Or... follow Umbertos advice and disable the 787

I don't know what you mean with "disable the 787".  Is this a typo ?

Since you are saying it was following my advice, than I assume you really meant DISABLE the "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling" option which is, incidentally, exactly how the QW 787 is pre-configured by FSDT!

Yes, the option you keep saying you "cannot Disable", which I tried multiple times to tell you surely can.

1 Fuel truck arrives
2 A GSX window will offer a list of fuel amounts that you can choose from

Assuming that following my advice to "disable the 787" ( I think I should know what I advised ) really meant disable the "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling" option, if you do that, you are not even supposed to see the GSX window asking how much fuel you want. Instead, you'll see GSX asking to use any other method to load fuel.

I suspect with "disable the 787", you meant something else and it wasn't the "Fuel and cargo dialog". INSTEAD, it was the "Detect custom aircraft system refueling", even if you already listed it as Disable in your 1st point, the one *before* the 2nd where you said "OR Follow Umberto's advice" so, even if you meant this option, the way you wrote seemed to indicate you already took that as granted, since it was in your 1st point *before* the OR.

Because, the whole procedure in your point #2, seems to indicate a perfectly working GSX refueling.

Please confirm it again: is following your procedure in #2 WORKS FOR YOU ? If yes, that's ends the whole discussion, because that's how GSX is supposed to work when it's allowed to refuel the airplane by itself.

And again, even if you Disable the option to have GSX do the refueling, the procedure would change but, you couldn't possibly end in a situation in which you cannot complete the refueling, surely NOT because of GSX, because GSX is not refueling in that case.

So, assuming you are now saying your procedure #2 works, we can say GSX can work with the 787 in both modes so, there wasn't any issue to begin with, other than having enabled the "Detect custom aircraft system refueling", which should probably not used except in the very specific case I explained above.

One could of course hope for the FSDT team to investigate this 787/GSX-specific error-behavior and find a fix, but if I understand the approach hear so far, the chances are pretty close to zero. They love to talk about how some things are working rather than speak about solutions to what is not working.

First, I would tell you that, if there WAS a bug to fix ( there isn't ), it would have probably taken way less time than the time spent trying to make you understand why and how things works ( they do ) the way they do.

I'm starting to suspect the ONLY real "issue" you had, was JUST the "Detect custom aircraft system refueling", which I agree can be confusing, and it's presented in a too easily accessible way, when in fact should be used only in fringe cases.

Many users turn it on, because they think this way GSX can "recognize" if an airplane HAS a custom fuel system, which is not what it does. What makes GSX knowing if the aircraft HAS a custom fuel system it's the airplane configuration, that is the "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling"!

The "Detect custom aircraft system refueling" might have been worded more correctly ( if we had more space on screen ) as:

"Detect when an airplane starts refueling itself and auto-call GSX fuel trucks"

Because this is what it does, and it's ONLY useful with planes ( like the PMDG 777, for example ) that have a simulated "turn-around" procedure, which can take a changing amount of time, which the airplane own progressive refueling is A PART OF, that can start at any time so, with this option Enabled, you are NOT supposed to call GSX fuel trucks manually: they will be sent automatically as soon the plane will start to refuel itself.

So, the only real problem is the option is not clearly explained, it's not useful with airplanes that don't have that kind of automation ( surely it's useless for the 787 ), and will likely have issues if you keep it enabled when the airplane doesn't need it.

I also think we'll probably need to make it aircraft-specific, not a global option, and keep it disabled for everything except maybe the PMDG planes.

And not, the very presence of that option was added ONLY because PMDG ( the only developer of hi-quality planes with this attitude ) didn't want to cooperate with us for some reason, because OUR proposal they rejected would have made the refueling so much better for all users, and it was a way to SYNCHRONIZE the airplane own refueling with GSX so, instead of GSX having to guess what the airplane is doing, it would be the airplane itself calling GSX when it knows is right to do that.

That's how FSLabs integration works, and that's why it works so incredibly well with GSX: because FsLabs worked with us and add code to their airplane to be sure they are working as good as possible.

[virtuali]

And here's the video, showing GSX is perfectly capable to refuel the QW787 with zero issues.

As you can see, we started with about 6000 lbs, when GSX arrived we asked for a 90% refill, for a total of 202,668 lbs. Since the largest GSX tanker can hold a maximum of 10K USGal ( that is 67K lbs ), 3 Tankers were used and, of course, at the end of 3rd one, the total fuel indicator in the airplane showed 202.7 lbs, EXACTLY what we asked for.

So where's the "bug" or the "erratic" behavior ? It works perfectly as expected.

Settings are:

- "Show Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling" ENABLED, which is what the GSX.CFG from QW specifies.

- "Detect custom aircraft system refueling" DISABLED.

- "Always refuel progressively" ENABLED, but it doesn't matter here, because when GSX refuels, it always refuels this way, the option is only meaningful if GSX is NOT refueling.

-  "Fuel Time Acceleration" 10x ( in the Timings ), for the obvious reason the video would otherwise lasted almost an hour.

[Fragtality]

"with one Truck-Trip, since it was on a Gate with Underground Fuel"
So then. my case was not tested. Well I assume that the functionality should work for any situation.

You're right, my Bad ^^
But yeah, you can assume it (should) work - tested it just now without Underground Fuel, with the Settings Umberto posted under his Video. Although: I have "Always refuel progressively" DISABLED since that is the Recommendation from FSLabs. Selected 100% in the Dialog, got 105.6kgs (which is exactly right for my modified aircraft.cfg)

So basically it should work for you too! When it doesn't: maybe the Logs from GSX (from when it happened) could help?

[mseder]

"your statement of not being able to Disable it."
That must be a misunderstanding, I'll never meant that any checkbox is untickable or something like that.

With my words "disable the 787" I mean the plane config and if "Show FSX Fuel & Cargo..." which, if it's disable blocks my scenario entirely, an out of scope solution which I have zero interest in being enlighten of.

"Because, the whole procedure in your point #2, seems to indicate a perfectly working GSX refueling."
All the seven points is my desired scenario.
Points 1-3 always works while 4-... is unpredictable and the reason for this case/thread.
I'll say it again, GSX doesn't send trucks EVERY TIME so that the refueling can be completed.

Your video looks good, this happen sometimes and sometimes not to me, so the video doesn't prove more than I've experienced myself. Again, it's the uncertainty of not having a second truck doing the job EVERY TIME that this is all about, probably told up to 10 times by now.

Your settings are exactly according to mine (see post #31). (including time rate)

So now we're standing on the same square, that's good.
With 2 different results, not good.
For the record I'm running FSX not prepare 3d, could that explain it?

[virtuali]

"your statement of not being able to Disable it."
That must be a misunderstanding, I'll never meant that any checkbox is untickable or something like that.

I never assumed you meant that. I correctly assumed you meant you can't USE the option in its Disabled mode and THAT'S doesn't make any sense because, as I've said so many times, it's IMPOSSIBLE the "fuel stops" ( as you said ), when GSX is NOT refueling.

With my words "disable the 787" I mean the plane config and if "Show FSX Fuel & Cargo..." which, if it's disable blocks my scenario entirely, an out of scope solution which I have zero interest in being enlighten of.

That you never had any interest to learn, was abundantly clear because if you did, you would understand that, with that option Disabled ( which I guess correctly what you meant, it seems ), the refueling will happen REGARDLESS OF GSX, as if there wasn't any GSX to begin with. So, whatever "scenario" you are envisioning, it's impossible that option in GSX would hinder it.

That's why it doesn't make any sense keep discussing about supposed "GSX bugs" in the refueling, when GSX is NOT refueling the airplane, and it doesn't make any sense to say you can't use it the Disabled option.

All the seven points is my desired scenario.

Which my video clearly proved IT WORKS.

Points 1-3 always works while 4-... is unpredictable and the reason for this case/thread. I'll say it again, GSX doesn't send trucks EVERY TIME so that the refueling can be completed.

And by some coincidence, it worked right away, at the first try for me.

Your video looks good, this happen sometimes and sometimes not to me, so the video doesn't prove more than I've experienced myself.

The video proves the problem doesn't happen.

IF and WHEN it happens to you, perhaps you might show some video that MAYBE will help me understand what's causing this, which can be anything, for example some external product/utility that you are using that might also change the fuel, *that* will surely confuse the heck of GSX ( if GSX is refueling ).

Again, it's the uncertainty of not having a second truck doing the job EVERY TIME that this is all about, probably told up to 10 times by now.

Don't you find odd you are the ONLY one reporting this ? There are ten of thousands of GSX users, if this problem really happened, don't you think we would have the forum SWAMPED in complains ?

Don't you find odd that, as YOU said yourself, A YEAR passed since the last time YOU posted here about this "problem" ?

For the record I'm running FSX not prepare 3d, could that explain it?

It's possible.

Using a 15-years old sim exposes you to all sort of bugs that might have been fixed in years of development in P3D. Simconnect, for example, which is the only way to communicate with the Simulator, in FSX we must use the 15-years old FSX version, while in P3D we obviously use the native P3D version that has been constantly maintained by LM during those years.

So, for example, any issue that might happen with the Simconnect communication, which in FSX ( not being really multi-threaded ) is even MORE affected by the NUMBER of add-ons using Simconnect that might all send many commands all at the same time, might result in the communication between GSX and the sim stopping for a while, or getting erratic data, confusing the process, this was a very common problem, especially in FSX, we had sceneries disappearing because another add-on was spamming Simconnect with so many commands that our software couldn't even talk to the sim reliably. This was far worse in FSX, because it's a chain reaction of obsolete software: FSX-Simconnect will use very old VC++ runtime libraries ( 2005 SP1 I think ), while P3D Simconnect use far more recent system libraries, which also have been through years of bugfixing from Microsoft.

So yes, using FSX might be a problem, also depending how many add-ons you have installed which also use Simconnect and, to add to the aggravation, in FSX Simconnect is a Side-by-Side library which means, when it works ( lots of time it doesn't ), it's even possible that, different add-on, loaded at the same time, loads each one its own specific version of Simconnect ( there are 3 that can be used in FSX ), all taking memory, while in P3D, in addition to have the whole Simconnect+Simulator system being 64 bit, Simconnect is statically linked so, there's only ONE version of it running at any given time, making everything so much more reliable.

[mseder]

Umberto

You can of course, as you try to do in your post, telling the customer that probably everything is the customer's fault and nothing has to do with the product.

Some simple facts:
- GSX 2 is marketed as a product supposed to work with FSX.
- Sending Fuel Trucks is something that GSX takes care of, not the aircraft or the sim itself.
- The "it works on my computer" has been used by developers and support as the number one bullshit argument as long as I can remember (been working as a developer for 40 years), please don't go into that swamp.
- So far you haven't been that productive honestly, other than producing a lot of texts.

And a simple question
Would you like to help or not, without elaborating so much?

Mats

[virtuali]

You can of course, as you try to do in your post, telling the customer that probably everything is the customer's fault and nothing has to do with the product.

I'm not just "telling" you. I'm spending my time:

- Trying to EXPLAIN it to you.

- Checking your claims and, after not finding anything, making a video to provide evidence of that.

Until now, you are the only one which only produced text, while I made actual effort to, you know, TRY what you described. I might try it in FSX, if that would made you happier but, don't expect anything more than that. I'll try with plain FSX installer, with nothing except the QW787. You can't seriously expect me to replicate your identical installation, that's really out of scope of every support.

I think that I already gave you way more than any reasonable user should expect from any support. Taking my time actually trying to replicate what you said doesn't work, and posting the results, in video form. What ELSE you want ?

GSX 2 is marketed as a product supposed to work with FSX.

It obviously works with FSX.

We cannot obviously guaranteed it will work REGARDLESS of HOW MANY others add-ons you have, which might cause conflicts, exhaust your memory, etc. And that's precisely why THERE IS A TRIAL, because it's impossible to anticipate all possible hardware/software combinations users might have so no, quoting the product description ( which discusses only FSX ), it's not really relevant, for a product that is sold in TRIAL version.

Sending Fuel Trucks is something that GSX takes care of, not the aircraft or the sim itself.

Which is why I took care of showing a video that shows GSX sending multiple Fuel trucks just fine.

- The "it works on my computer" has been used by developers and support as the number one bullshit argument as long as I can remember (been working as a developer for 40 years), please don't go into that swamp.

You got it backwards. I'm not saying "it's working on my computer". I'm saying you are THE ONLY ONE reporting this. Again, don't you find odd that, A YEAR passed since the last time YOU posted here about this "problem" ? From the evidence we have, it's exactly the opposite of what you are saying, most user don't have any problems with refueling.

So far you haven't been that productive honestly, other than producing a lot of texts.

Wrong. I VERIFIED the problem doesn't happen, and produced EVIDENCE of that.

Would you like to help or not, without elaborating so much?

As I've said already, if YOU want to help, what about ( instead of elaborating so much ) trying to do what I did, and post some video showing exactly what you did ( and which other add-ons you are using, and how ), so MAYBE I might have some ideas why this thing that apparently doesn't happen to many people, "sometimes" happens to you ?

[mseder]

If you missed something in the video let me know.
https://youtu.be/0VPXS9DPLT8
 
Story
787 Starts with 9000 lbs
Asks for 100% fuel
Truck 1 arrives, fills the tanks with 76000..
Another truck is sent for
Second truck arrives
Does nothing else but leaving the place like the driver seen a ghost or something.

Good to know:
It took me 2 attempts before the issue was found.

Mats

[virtuali]

If you missed something in the video let me know.

The video shows something quite different than what it seemed from your description. It's not as if GSX is "stuck" or stopped working, it's just that it decided to complete the refueling.

Checking the code, it seems it should happen if something else ( the user, or another app ), has changed the fuel quantity, are you sure you don't have anything that might acted on the fuel levels ?

That might not be the only possible case, but I need to prepare a special logging version with additional info you can try.

[mseder]

Hi

Thanks for getting into the code!!

Hmmm... let's see here. Could the APU being on an perhaps consume some fuel and so making a change between the 2 refuelings?

I'll test that!

Mats

[mseder]

I now ensured that the APU was off, which it wasn't during the last failed attempt.
This time all trucks did their work.
It might a lucky hit or this is the cause.

At what moments do the code check the difference. Or put in another way, when can I turn on the APU?

Mats

[virtuali]

At what moments do the code check the difference. Or put in another way, when can I turn on the APU?

I'm not 100% sure it's the APU consumption, will need to do extra checks tomorrow ( it's almost midnight here ) and have some discussion with the other GSX programmer, since he made the refuel routine.

But in any case, the check is made for the whole duration of the refueling.