Author Topic: New FSXBA Hornet  (Read 1148873 times)

LtButler

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #255 on: February 05, 2014, 03:34:53 pm »
Jimi, figured out the hook!  ;D  It shows in MP whenever both parties are using the CLEAN model, but does NOT show in MP if both are using the training model.  I don't have the time to test each model tonight, but I most certainly will tomorrow after work, and I'll let you know which other models (if any) properly display the hook in MP.

I noticed the same thing when me and my buddy went on a flight. 

pyroperson87

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #256 on: February 05, 2014, 05:56:36 pm »
Been reading some more of the NATOPS today while on break at work.  I'm sure sounds are about as far down the list as textures, but I thought I'd note some sound inconsistencies, none of which are a huge deal.

1) As mentioned, no Over-g tone IRL.

2) Departure tone - not included that I'm aware of.  It's a beeping tone that increases in frequency the closer you get to NATOPS limits of AoA.  It will probably be hard to accurately model this since the tone itself is very dynamic and depends on lots of factors.  See NATOPS 2.8.2.5 (Departure Warning Tone)

3) RALT tone - The tone in the 2014 just goes off once when crossing the set altitude (hardcoded at 350 right now I think), however in the real jet the tone is CONTINUOUS until the pilot resets the tone, unless it isn't reset at all, in which case it will continue until WonW.  See NATOPS 2.12.5.1 (Primary Radar Low Altitude Warning)

4) Most Betty sounds appear to be based on the Rhino.  The Fire Test switch uses the correct voice, however I'm assuming that this is just because the real Legacy Betty tones are hard to come by.  I'll see if I can dig some up somewhere.

5) Is it possible to implement the warning tone silence button next to the gear lever?  Not important, would just be nice to have in some instances.

Pops

jimi08

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #257 on: February 06, 2014, 02:57:54 am »
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Kinda off the topic.. I know some of the animations aren't working yet, But is there a way to show the empty cockpit on this current version? I thought I saw a screen shot of this at one time..
I'm A huge fan of the legacy hornet.. I would like to say thank you for this model and work that went into it!!!!
-Thanks for the compliments!  I will pass the good word on to all those involved.  As for the empty cockpit, I will have to check this out.  I know that the jet is currently coded to show certain things such as boarding ladder, chocks and intake covers, but some of my FCS coding is blocking their functionality.  When I figure things out, I will chime back in on the answer.

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As mentioned, no Over-g tone IRL.
-Should be easy to remove.  I'll take care of that by the next release.

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Departure tone - not included that I'm aware of.  It's a beeping tone that increases in frequency the closer you get to NATOPS limits of AoA.  It will probably be hard to accurately model this since the tone itself is very dynamic and depends on lots of factors.  See NATOPS 2.8.2.5 (Departure Warning Tone)

-I going through some ideas on how to possibly implement this...  Might be a while before I figure it out though.

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RALT tone - The tone in the 2014 just goes off once when crossing the set altitude (hardcoded at 350 right now I think), however in the real jet the tone is CONTINUOUS until the pilot resets the tone, unless it isn't reset at all, in which case it will continue until WonW.  See NATOPS 2.12.5.1 (Primary Radar Low Altitude Warning)
-Might be able to do this.  I'll put on the Honey-Do-List lol.

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Most Betty sounds appear to be based on the Rhino.  The Fire Test switch uses the correct voice, however I'm assuming that this is just because the real Legacy Betty tones are hard to come by.  I'll see if I can dig some up somewhere.
-Roger.  Thanks.

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Is it possible to implement the warning tone silence button next to the gear lever?  Not important, would just be nice to have in some instances.
-that involves animating and tagging that button, which involves decompiling and recompiling the 3-D model, which I do not know how to do.  Sorry.

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Jimi, figured out the hook!  Grin  It shows in MP whenever both parties are using the CLEAN model, but does NOT show in MP if both are using the training model.  I don't have the time to test each model tonight, but I most certainly will tomorrow after work, and I'll let you know which other models (if any) properly display the hook in MP.
According to Jamal, only the clean and FSXBA models have this feature.  Maybe someone from these forums here can help us implement this in the 3D model so we can apply it to the other variants (along with the wing fold)

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NWS is my bad...Sorry I said that.  I would rather have the old NWS back (the NATOPS spec version) and just get used to it.
No worries.  Already re-implemented.

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Overall handling characteristics feel very different now.  The thrust feels much better, but roll rates seem a tad slower, and rate of turn (i.e. rate of heading change) seems slower as well.  Also, when entering into a bank from level flight the vertical speed should slowly decrease (i.e start going negative) and the velocity vector should sink slightly and visualize that decreasing sink rate.  From my flight, it doesn't appear that is the case, but rather the jet is attempting to maintain level flight.  Maybe I'm incorrect in this, but that is the way the previous iteration of the 2014 flew, as well as the 2012 and the Superbug.  It made passes at the boat a bit difficult.  I can try to explain this in better detail if needed.  Or maybe tomorrow after I get home from work I'll try to make a quick video showing what I'm talking about.
-Sludge and I had the opportunity a while back to fly in some of the F/A-18 sims over at Miramar.  I do remember the pilot there telling us that the jet will somewhat maintain pitch in a banked turn up to 30 degrees before the nose will start to "fall through"  The way the logic is set now, the jet will automatically induce rudder trim based on Angle of Bank (AOB).  It will dial in trim up to 45 degrees at which point, it will start dialing out trim, to where no trim is present by 90 degrees AOB.  This was done for better and steep turn handling and for better formation aerobatic maneuvering.  There are two things I can do to remedy: 1.  I can enable the same auto rudder system that is enabled with gear and flaps down.  That system is not based on AOB, but constantly monitors the slip and skid of the aircraft and appropriates rudder trim accordingly.... or 2.  I can keep the AOB based system, just strengthen its effectiveness.  Either way, will give you a better turning (i.e. chew through heading...) aircraft.  As for the roll, I made a slight adjustment to ailerons, if anything, they should be more aggressive.  I increased their effectiveness at 0 airspeed so that full range of motion could be seen while on the ground.  That was all.  In terms of handling around the boat, I would ask that you confirm that flaps are in full.   You should get the opposite effect as long as you have gear and flaps deployed.  With that configuration the rudder trim is set to null out slips/skids so it tends to chew through heading quite effortlessly.  With that come a little more aft stick that what would normally be required during UA.

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ATC now works in UA and PA mode, however it didn't disengage when I trapped and I rolled right off the end of the deck after letting off the brakes.  I'll have to try it again at an airfield, and then make a few more passes at the boat with it engaged.  I also noticed it's no longer mapped to the carb heat, but to Ctrl+R, could that be causing FSX autothrottle to interfere with your custom autothrottle.xml?  EDIT: Flew another pass at the boat using the ATC in PA, I think it's holding the airspeed I engaged it at, as opposed to trying to maintain on speed for the given trimmed AoA.
I did reprogram the activation of the ATC to work with the default speed hold, which is Ctrl+R, but now that I think about it, the default and programed ATC might be conflicting with each other, at which point the default speed hold wins out and tries to maintain the speed that was present upon its activation.

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And a question about the AoA trimming.  I believe I read that once in PA mode, trimming the pitch is done by hand to 8.1 AoA.  It seems however that in the 2014, trimming doesn't work at all in PA, and that it's automatic?  Is this as per NATOPS?
-Trimming is done by hand and trims the aircraft as a function of AOA.  I currently do not possess the knowledge necessary to pull this one off the way I would like, which is by using the normal trim buttons to "dial in" the AOA and have the trim system maintain the trimmed AOA.  This involves disconnecting the stick input, the stabs, and the stab indications from one another and inserting so logic in between.  I've spent many months over the course of last year trying to figure this one out, but have only had marginal success.  I guess I will need to start learning how FSUIPC works as I hear that might by the remedy.

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Packet count in MP is rather large...over 800 most of the time.  I'm assuming that some of that is caused by the data gauge.  Does anything depend on the data gauge or can I remove it for testing packet count?
-Not sure what is causing the high count.  It might be the data gauge, but it doesn't make since that that would be the culprit.  "Packet Flooding" is usually caused by certain triggered events happening in rapid succession while in multiplayer, such as rapidly raising and lowering the flaps, gear, smoke, and a few other things that are transmitted across the net.  Usually primary control surfaces do not affect this.  However, I will check into this.  To answer your question though, no, nothing depends on the data gauge.

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The UA logic is now correct for normal flight conditions.  Inverted flight is still incorrect as it still attempts to capture -1.0 g.  It should be identical to normal flight and attempt to capture +1.0 g.
-Easy Fix.  I'll take care of that.

I hope this answer most of the questions out there for now.

Justin "Jimi" Hendrix
FSX Blue Angels
FSXBA F/A-18C Hornet Latest Download Link: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,6944.msg117011.html#msg1

Wingnut172N

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #258 on: February 06, 2014, 03:04:17 am »
Can we wait a little bit before adjusting the radalt tone?

There is some logic here that NATOPS does not fully explain, which I'd like to get right.  Here's my reasoning.

As SOP the RADALT is set to 370 feet in the traffic pattern so it goes off at the 45 (the point where you'd be crossing the wake at the ship).  But the tone isn't constantly chirping all the way from the 45 to touchdown, so there must be some logic attached to the gear handle, but it's not mentioned in NATOPS.

I'd like to do some research before we change anything, because the VRS jet goes off constantly from the 45 to touchdown, and it is 1.) annoying 2.) not like the real jet.  I don't want to give you bad information though.

NATOPS does state that the aural warning for the RADALT will continue if not reset, but at the lowest priority.  I know for a fact that during an Emergency Procedures sim, but WSO didn't reset the RADALT and after a certain amount of time it didn't sound a warning anymore.  Let me research the logic here a bit more before we adjust it?  Is that alright?

pyroperson87

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #259 on: February 06, 2014, 03:18:59 am »
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Is that alright?

Of course it's alright!  Lets see...who should Jimi listen to?  The dude that's just pulling excerpts from the NATOPS and taking them out of context (mostly), or the winged USN naval aviator that has the opportunity to help Jimi much more accurately implement NATOPS specifications? 

That's a really easy choice  ;D

And Jimi...thanks for the detailed responses to the feedback.
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There are two things I can do to remedy

I'm not sure what would provide the best results in-sim, so maybe try each option over the next two releases?  Or just pick which one you would prefer as it sounds like either would provide the desired end result.  Which would be the most realistic approach?

Lastly...

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Honey-Do-List

Hahahahahahaha!
Pops

pyroperson87

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #260 on: February 06, 2014, 03:21:43 am »
One other thing Jimi, are you opposed to using sounds ripped from youtube videos of other sims?  I have some good audio clips here for a few tones (still need cutting and cleaning up) from Seven-G.  I've tried getting their permission to use some things, but they are totally unresponsive.
Pops

jimi08

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #261 on: February 06, 2014, 04:30:03 am »
Wingnut, I agree 100% on what Pyro said. Thanks for your help and input. I have no problem waiting. The jet will be here for a while and so will I.

Pyro, no problem with the sound files as long as its OK with seven G. I don't need them hunting me down ...

Justin "Jimi" Hendrix
FSX Blue Angels
FSXBA F/A-18C Hornet Latest Download Link: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,6944.msg117011.html#msg1

Essex

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #262 on: February 07, 2014, 12:56:21 am »
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Jimi, figured out the hook!  Grin  It shows in MP whenever both parties are using the CLEAN model, but does NOT show in MP if both are using the training model.  I don't have the time to test each model tonight, but I most certainly will tomorrow after work, and I'll let you know which other models (if any) properly display the hook in MP.
According to Jamal, only the clean and FSXBA models have this feature.  Maybe someone from these forums here can help us implement this in the 3D model so we can apply it to the other variants (along with the wing fold)

The clean and FSXBA models have the hook designated as door_3 not tailhook. Presumably door_3 data is transmitted in MP whereas tailhook data isn't? What determines the data that's transmitted? Can this be customised?
I assume door_3 doesn't react to contact with the ground unlike tailhook, is that important?
I'm fairly sure attachpt_tailhook_hook could be placed on a door, could <Variable>EXIT OPEN:3</Variable> be then linked to tailhook position?
More questions than answers I'm afraid.

jimi08

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #263 on: February 07, 2014, 02:27:01 am »
Yes the hook animation is registered as an exit so that it can be seen in multiplayer and a gauge was created in mirror the open/close status of it with the actual tail hook function to make it usable during arrested landings. There are a few other variables that are transmitted through multiplayer but not many. I don't know how to customize this.

Justin "Jimi" Hendrix
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FSXBA F/A-18C Hornet Latest Download Link: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,6944.msg117011.html#msg1

mace

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #264 on: February 07, 2014, 04:20:45 am »
Hi,

Nice too see so many people here are so passionate and in love with every detail of the legacy hornet. And thank you to the team who's making the legacy alive in FSX. 


I've noticed few things with the 2014.2 model, and here's the list.

- when the flaps are down, the rudders move from toe-in to toe-out depending on its AOA in the real hornet.  The rudders will toe-in in lower AOA, back to neutral "on speed", and toe-out in higher ANA.  When WonW, the rudders will toe-in regardless to AOA.

- when flaps set to AUTO, I think the LEF are moving too much against the actual AOA and the movement of the TEF. Sorry I can't tell you in detail with actual data, but from the videos and photos I could find, I think the balance of LEF and TEF deployment is bit unbalanced. 

- when flaps are in HALF or FULL, I thought the LEF moves between 12-30deg down, and are locked to 12deg with WonW. 

- would be nice if models with 2-tanks and 3-tanks are added.

- would be nice if the rudders and h-stabs have UV mapped individually on every surface to repaint showbirds


Hope these help in some way. 

Though any of these couldn't be done, the legacy is the best legacy for FSX in any way.
I think I can't sleep this weekend, gotta paint something to fly from Atsugi.

Thanks :D



pyroperson87

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #265 on: February 07, 2014, 07:15:47 am »
Welcome Mace! Glad to have you with us. A few comments:

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when the flaps are down, the rudders move from toe-in to toe-out depending on its AOA in the real hornet

Where are you getting this info?

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when flaps are in HALF or FULL, I thought the LEF moves between 12-30deg down, and are locked to 12deg with WonW.  

I didn't notice this until just now, but you are correct. The flap scheduling logic you described is as per NATOPS. Not sure that this is possible, but Jimi can tell you for sure.

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gotta paint something to fly from Atsugi.

Can't wait to see it! I would love to see a good legacy diamondbacks texture. Yes I know they never flew legacies, they just have great CAG paints!  ;D
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 07:33:41 am by pyroperson87 »
Pops

mace

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #266 on: February 07, 2014, 08:50:18 am »
Hi Pyro, nice to see you, and thank you for your comments.

About the rudders, I can't find any information to describe what I'm saying, but from what I saw; photos, videos, and real hornets on short final, I came up with that logic I posted. I'll look for some photos or videos after I get home.

And about the repaint, I might try Dbacks after the Maces, Dragons, Chippy and so on :).  Sure they have a nice paint scheme for their CAG birds, so it should be fun repainting their paint schemes. I already have EA-6 in VAQ-136 livery and F-14 in VF-154 livery, so all I gotta do is to paint the rest of VFA squadrons to fly over atsugi.

I like the showbird of the Mighty Shrikes too, but it should be really hard putting that paint scheme on to the FSXBA hornet due to its UV mapping. I'll try though.

Hope the team can make 2-tank version of the hornet, as it was seen pretty often when half of the CVW-5 was the legacy hornets.

Snake

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #267 on: February 07, 2014, 03:06:51 pm »
I have been test flying the hornet for the last few days and i must say it is an awesome piece of work. The flight model is  better than the VRS model, too bad they will not fix it. I know it is still in testing so here is my input:

I noticed when taxiing at 70% rpm the jet crawls and when i bump it to 71% the speed starts to build very quickly, makes it very hard to taxi in formation. flying in formation is the same, when i hit that spot and get too much acceleration and overshoot the leader.

That's the only item i see right now, i know you have a lot of other items on the checklist i just thought i would mention that because i have not seen it being discussed yet.


pyroperson87

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #268 on: February 07, 2014, 03:50:26 pm »
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I noticed when taxiing at 70% rpm the jet crawls and when i bump it to 71% the speed starts to build very quickly, makes it very hard to taxi in formation. flying in formation is the same, when i hit that spot and get too much acceleration and overshoot the leader.

I noticed this as well, which is why I think I originally had a tough time with the NWS in HI gain.  However I just brushed it off as "not being used to it."  I know Jimi has been working on the thrust curves pretty extensively over the last little bit, so perhaps he can shed some more light on it.

And welcome to the forums!  It's great to see so many new people joining and posting.  The more people there are in the FSX Naval Aviation "community" the more likely we are to continue to see new developments.

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I can't find any information to describe what I'm saying, but from what I saw; photos, videos, and real hornets on short final, I came up with that logic I posted. I'll look for some photos or videos after I get home

That would be great, I'm very interested to see them, as I can't find anything regarding this in the NATOPS (yet).
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 04:06:33 pm by pyroperson87 »
Pops

pyroperson87

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Re: New FSXBA Hornet
« Reply #269 on: February 07, 2014, 04:37:14 pm »
Update on toe-in/toe-out:

NATOPS excerpt:

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In the takeoff and land modes, rudder toe-in is used to improve the longitudinal stability and to provide early rotation during takeoff or bolter.  Rudder toe-in/toe-out is a function of AOA with maximum toe-in (30 degrees) at low AOA (less than 2 degrees) or WOW and decreases proportionally through 0 - 15 degrees toe-out at 11 degrees AOA.

Some things to note:

Toe-in with WOW will always be 30 degrees.

So the max range is from 30 degrees toe-in to 15 degrees toe-out, with the 30 degrees toe-in at 2 degrees AOA or less, and 15 degrees toe-out occurring at or above 11 degrees AOA. 

What I'm failing to understand from the NATOPS is the scheduling.  It says that it decreases proportionally, but what are the ranges in which it is proportional?  NATOPS seems a bit vague here, but to ME it sounds like the proportionality is from 2 AOA through 11 AOA.  I'm guessing toe scheduling is identical (or very similar) in the Rhino so perhaps Wingnut can further explain this.
Pops