Author Topic: vLSO Beta release  (Read 814719 times)

GOONIE

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #990 on: August 04, 2014, 07:34:37 pm »
Want to know what folks are setting natural wind speeds and carrier speed in FSX when using vLSO? For example I use 6 knots of wind (down the angle) and have the ship speed set at 20 knots, so WoD is ~26 knots. With these winds and when flying 'on speed' in the groove (I fly the VRS F/A-18E), my time in groove is +23 seconds, and I get LIG (long in groove) a lot. Seems a 26 knots WoD is realistic, so I am curious what winds/speeds folks use and groove times you get. I ultimately reduce the ship speed to 10-12 knots, at get a 16-18 knot WoD (not sure that is NATOPS legal), and get better groove times (~18seconds).

Does the LSO's groove time requirements change based on WoD in the real world?

Thanks for any thoughts our input on winds and ship speed in relation to groove times (vLSO) in FSX. 
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SpazSinbad

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #991 on: August 04, 2014, 09:17:59 pm »
In the many references to groove length in my 'deck landing' material the most common is 15-18 seconds followed by '15-20 seconds'. Here is one official reference:

COMCARAIRWING SEVEN INSTRUCTION 1520.1N | Subj: LANDING SIGNAL OFFICER TRAINING/CARRIER LANDING SAFETY PROGRAM

http://www.cvw7.navy.mil/inc/cmodules/dms/download-rel.php?secid=99&id=0&filesystem_id=7199

“...(5) Wind. During normal operations wind calls will be made periodically. During “ZIP LIP,” wind calls will not be made if WOD is 25-30 knots....

...(9) Groove length. Proper groove length is 15-18 seconds, 19-21 seconds will be grades as “little long in the groove.” If it is required to waveoff a LIG aircraft it will be grades as 2.0 points (WOP)....”

Depending on WOD the pilot should adjust base turn position to gain correct groove length. In my time everything was done visually so IF I thought I had misjudged base I would angle in a lot (with more angle of bank initially) before getting in the groove at correct length. When several aircraft in the pattern - especially if arresting - it is important to not be long in the groove (and cause the following aircraft to wave off foul deck).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 09:21:19 pm by SpazSinbad »
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Paddles

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #992 on: August 05, 2014, 01:44:12 pm »
With WOD >25 I get (LIG) or LIG too. That's perhaps because of FSX glideslope angle, which is steeper than the real one (4.12 vs 3.75 or even 4.12 vs 3.25)?
Can somebody do some FCLP tests with WOD ~26..28 in order to compare groove times?

As for new options to the program - should I provide two frequencies? Say, one for LSO, one for CATCC?
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GOONIE

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #993 on: August 05, 2014, 05:48:32 pm »
Thanks Paddles and Spaz,

I think it is a combo of the glideslope and FSX. Do either of you have any info on WoD requirements/limits for F/A-18 during carrier landings? E.g. minimum of 20 knots WoD, max of 40 knots?

"Depending on WOD the pilot should adjust base turn position to gain correct groove length" Does this mean you even if you have turn to get in the groove prior to 3/4NM in order to get the proper groove time, that is ok? What is more important, groove time, or correct start distance (3/4NM)?

Here is my math. On Speed in the SuperHornet, 145kts - WoD 26 kts = 119 kts, which takes ~22 seconds to fly 3/4 NM
 
I think 26 knots is reasonable WoD right? Wouldn't a higher glideslope (FSX 4.12) be used in high wind conditions? That is what I would like to replicate/simulate without getting a LIG every time.


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SpazSinbad

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #994 on: August 06, 2014, 12:14:39 am »
IMHO the regulation groove TIME is what is important for reason mentioned: When more than one aircraft landing sequentially then it is important to NOT cause the following aircraft (which has likely taken the correct interval at the section break) to wave off because you in front are long in the groove. Usually the LSO will wave off the Long In Groove aircraft very quickly at beginning of their approach so that the 'good guy' can land (the one behind the LIG). When there is no following aircraft then the LIG may be allowed to continue as long as the 'long time is groove is not going to be too long'. Usually LIG means more chance to foul up the approach also. A good approach is a quick one (which is not 'too short in the groove') so the Goldilocks approach is good to go. :-)

I think I have a reference for good Hornet WOD which will be posted here soonish. From Legacy Hornet NATOPS:

"...With a 30-knot wind over the deck begin the 180° turn to the final approach when approximately abeam the LSO platform...."
&
“...For any carrier operations wind is needed to blow over the deck in order to launch & recover aircraft — typically 20 to 30 knots (38-55km/h) aboard the USS Harry S Truman. For safe operations there must be a minimal crosswind & a ship’s roll of no more than two degrees....”
RN weather experts prepare for new carriers with US Navy 9 Nov 12 http://www.noodls.com/view/3FBA6956CA641EAE45D01545F9002FEB4B916EFB

As for high WOD: there is a limit due to factors such as increasing the stress on the aircraft at touchdown (not recognised until a study done on it some decades ago now). Probably there is a reference to this effect already in this thread or on the forum somewhere but anyway here it is again:

EFFECT OF WIND OVER DECK CONDITIONS ON AIRCRAFT APPROACH SPEEDS FOR CARRIER LANDINGS
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA239511 (small PDF)

A heavily edited PDF of the above Main PDF is attached but with all relevant bits.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 12:28:05 am by SpazSinbad »
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ExNusquam

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #995 on: August 06, 2014, 10:41:52 pm »
As for new options to the program - should I provide two frequencies? Say, one for LSO, one for CATCC?

Paddles, if you want to add separate frequencies, take note of this story. It seems like the aircraft get switched from Marshal to Final (LSO) at platform.

http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=7012.0;wap2

GOONIE

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #996 on: August 07, 2014, 06:59:21 pm »
Spaz,
Thanks for the info on WoD, that was a good read if you don't fall asleep. It is counterintuitive to think with higher WoD, aircraft approach speeds would be higher and result more stress on the aircraft and arresting gear.  ??? But you can't argue with the math and observations in the report.

One thing I noticed that might be of interest to Paddles is the G/S angle reported to be used for FCLP, it is 3.25 degrees.

Paddles, do you set the IFOFLS to 3.25 for your FCLP scenery?

Paddles,
Below are three pictures, the first is a CASE I pass with 28knots WoD. I turn into the groove at 3/4NM call the ball and get a LIG (~23 seconds) and a Fair grade four wire. Second picture is same conditions 28 knots WoD, but I turn in early to reduce groove time (~17 seconds). I don't get a LIG, but I get several line up comments since vLSO perceives me as LUL in order to get the correct groove time as per Spaz's advice. Again I get another Fair grade four wire. The final picture shows another CASE I pass, with only 22 knots WoD, I get a two (H) comments, but overall an OK pass into the four wire. I am not sure how the grading algorithm works, but I assume a LIG is a worse comment versus (H), and resulted in the Fair grade with 28 knots WoD, but an OK with only 22 knots. 

Paddles as you know I love vLSO, and am just pointing out my observations, not gripes, hoping to make sense of what I am seeing and or make improvements if needed.


GOONIE
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SpazSinbad

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #997 on: August 07, 2014, 11:46:14 pm »
Goonie, I do not know where you are turning base. However the way I would reduce groove time is: turn base earlier than you have been.

My comment about over banking early in the turn was IF/WHEN base turn was perceived to HAVE BEEN started TOO Late, thus likely to cause Long In Groove. The way we could make up for that (within parameters) was to overbank as you have done straight after turning base to see the potential for being 'long' - then a sharp turn to get on centreline is required BUT not too close to the carrier - you do need a straightaway. However going back to basics:

With Higher WOD turn base earlier than usual.

I guess your graphic file names refer to base turn? If so then ensure that you get to the centreline of angle deck as quick as. Probably the vLSO is a bit inflexible however I do not know how to change that.

I did a lot of testing for early FCLP but I cannot really recall what the parameters were now. It was a few years back and a lot of different parameters were tested. Probably PADDLES remembers it all. :-) As I recall the wind was HIGH and straight down the runway because with the Hornet in use at that time (an early SLUDGE) that (for me) produced a nice result (not that I have flown a Hornet - only the old A4G).
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 11:53:01 pm by SpazSinbad »
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Paddles

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #998 on: August 08, 2014, 06:18:49 pm »
One thing I noticed that might be of interest to Paddles is the G/S angle reported to be used for FCLP, it is 3.25 degrees.

Paddles, do you set the IFOFLS to 3.25 for your FCLP scenery?

All my vLSO compatible scenries have IFLOLS set to 3.75.

I did a lot of testing for early FCLP but I cannot really recall what the parameters were now. It was a few years back and a lot of different parameters were tested. Probably PADDLES remembers it all. :-) As I recall the wind was HIGH and straight down the runway because with the Hornet in use at that time (an early SLUDGE) that (for me) produced a nice result

Yep, that was epic! You did a whole lot of tests  8) The only scenery we then decided to leave with 3.25 was the first generation El Centro. Of course, it is not compatible with vLSO, however you can still bounce there with a shallower glideslope and see the difference.
Technically it is possible to recompile the IFLOLS model with other glideslope settings, like 3.5 or 3.25, whatever...  ;)

...I don't get a LIG, but I get several line up comments since vLSO perceives me as LUL in order to get the correct groove time as per Spaz's advice. Again I get another Fair grade four wire.

I see. A quick idea that came to my mind - at high WOD the program won't check the lineup for a second or two after ball call.
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GOONIE

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #999 on: August 11, 2014, 03:24:43 pm »
Paddles, did you select a 3.75 g/s based on some gouge for FCLPs?

I think if vLSO is more lenient on the line up calls when WoD is high (>26 knots) it may work. Not a big deal, I just want to get more OK 3s  ;D

GOONIE
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Paddles

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1000 on: August 11, 2014, 04:53:49 pm »
Well... During numerous FCLP tests, conducted by Spaz, we tried different glideslope settings under various weather conditions. If my memory serves me right, those settings were 3.25, 3.5, 3.75. Finally the latter was chosen for 'line' FCLPs, whereas 3.25 remained for 'initial' (or rookie) FCLP missions at El Centro (no wind, hoops in the sky etc)
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GOONIE

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1001 on: August 11, 2014, 05:22:02 pm »
OK, roger that! 3.75 it is ;D
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Paddles

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1002 on: August 20, 2014, 02:00:41 pm »
Ok guys,
Just a quick WIP update...

The upcoming vLSO beta will include the following features:

- More randomization of voice calls;
- The S-3B (by Dino) is now supported by default;
- LSO/ATC radio settings;
- Repeat the last text message at user's request.

Now more detailed on the radio option. You will be able to use a dedicated COM frequency for LSO/ATC.
You first enable and set this frequency in the program. Then you tune your radio in the cockpit to this frequency (COM1 or COM2) and voila, you will hear all LSO/ATC voice calls.
If you tune the radio to other frequency (from COM1 to COM2, for example, or to a standby frequency) then you won't hear LSO. This means LSO won't be able to 'communicate' with you either, so no graded approaches in this case...  ;)

If you turn this option off, all LSO voice messages will be audible no matter what COM1/COM2 frequency is set.
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GOONIE

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1003 on: August 20, 2014, 02:53:01 pm »
Very nice! Can't wait  ;D
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pyroperson87

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1004 on: August 20, 2014, 04:44:10 pm »
Nice work Paddles! How do the comms work IRL? Does the CATCC use the same freq as the LSO, or would one be using CATCC until abeam and then switch over to the LSO freq?
Pops