Author Topic: vLSO Beta release  (Read 818937 times)

Paddles

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #615 on: February 10, 2013, 12:05:58 pm »
pyroperson89,
If your gears lowered prior to 9nm then you should hear ALL mile calls, starting from 'niner miles, dirty up' to 'paddles contact'. Ifyou can't hear some of the calls, please make sure that wav files of these calls are present within the Marshal subfolder.
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pyroperson87

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #616 on: February 11, 2013, 05:59:09 am »
That is correct.  If I lower my gear prior to 10 miles I get all of the calls.  However, to be more realistic you wouldn't actually lower your gear or flaps until you got the dirty up call from the LSO at 9 miles.  So my dilemma is that I ONLY get the dirty up call if I am already in the dirty configuration, which isn't true to life. 
Pops

Paddles

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #617 on: February 11, 2013, 06:39:28 am »
pyroperson89,
I know there are some calls inconsistencies, mostly due to limited number of real voice calls. But I will try to fix this glitch in the future  :)
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pyroperson87

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #618 on: February 11, 2013, 09:41:09 pm »
Okay excellent.  I'm not complaining by any means.  I love vLSO and I think it's a fantastic little program.  I was just pointing out inconsistencies that I've noticed to hopefully help you out with future releases.  Keep up the good work!
Pops

Mower

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #619 on: February 16, 2013, 05:01:44 pm »
No doubt a dumb question but...

(1) when the LSO says "power" or "dont settle" do I add throttle?
(2) when the LSO says "you're fast" or "you're slow", do I adjust AOA?

Cheers!

Mickey_Techy

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #620 on: February 16, 2013, 05:28:05 pm »
No doubt a dumb question but...

(1) when the LSO says "power" or "dont settle" do I add throttle?
(2) when the LSO says "you're fast" or "you're slow", do I adjust AOA?

Cheers!

Yes..but,

(1) Yes, and
(2) Yes

Cheers!

pyroperson87

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #621 on: February 16, 2013, 06:22:24 pm »
No doubt a dumb question but...

(1) when the LSO says "power" or "dont settle" do I add throttle?
(2) when the LSO says "you're fast" or "you're slow", do I adjust AOA?

Cheers!

To be more precise...

1) Yes.  You're settling below the glideslope and need to add some power to catch it again.
2) Remember that Naval Aviation is backwards from most other forms of aviation.  Or should I say everything else is backwards from Naval Aviation! Ha.  Throttle controls rate of descent.  You should be trimmed to the proper AoA before you call the ball, and stick inputs are generally speaking for lateral control. 

If you want to know more about how it really works I would PM someone like Sludge or Spaz.  They really know their stuff and could probably explain it better.

Pyro
Pops

Mickey_Techy

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #622 on: February 16, 2013, 06:28:13 pm »
........... Remember that Naval Aviation is backwards from most other forms of aviation.  Or should I say everything else is backwards from Naval Aviation! ..........

I'm sorry but I don't understand that.
Pray tell me how!

Victory103

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #623 on: February 16, 2013, 06:45:01 pm »
Area of reverse command, now pitch controls speed, power controls altitude. Adjust both in unison to stay on glidepath in the groove. For the most part set your on-speed AoA, and maintain it with slight adjusts all the way down to the wires.
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Sludge

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #624 on: February 16, 2013, 08:50:53 pm »
Mower...

As Pyro and others have said, when you're doing a carrier approach, you need to be in a dirty setup (gear down, hook down) and Flaps FULL, have the "W" (aircraft cord-line) near the 5 deg up on the pitch ladder and the "o" (velocity vector; predicted line-of-flight) around 3-4 deg down on the pitch ladder. To change your glideslope, using needles (glideslope needle) or the meatball (yellow center vertical light), keep the "W" on the 5 and ADD THROTTLE in easy increments. You'll notice the "o" (v/v) rise... let it... 'til you get a centered g/s needle or centered meatball. Then back pull off the power 'til you get a centered "E-bracket" (HUD-based AoA indicator) and reconfirm you are "on-speed" by using the physical AoA Indexer giving you the "yellow donut".

If you have problems with understanding this, check out my Y/T on how to fly a carrier pattern, with emphasis on the final landing phase, starting around 1:30.



Later
Sludge


SpazSinbad

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #625 on: February 16, 2013, 10:43:06 pm »
'Mower' you have had some great answers and Sludge's video explainos are excellent. Perhaps starting out learning NavAv attempting carrier landings from the getgo is not to your advantage. Carrier pilots start with about 100 FCLPs with every other sortie landing an 'FCLP' so by the time they get to the carrier for their first deck landing on type they have done at least 100 FCLPs (this number reduces with their individual experience). Perhaps trying out FCLPs will be helpful. FSXNP has a mission package that is excellent value also. Then there is this amazing explaino video from the FSXblues:

http://fsxblueangels.com/videoscreen%20ok3.html

Searching this forum for 'how to deck land' or similar will glean a lot of advice. Watch the video to get your head around NavAv.
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mjrhealth

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #626 on: February 16, 2013, 10:47:14 pm »
Power for altitude , pitch for speed, im getting better. Most planes require the speed breaks on to get the engine speed up so that they respond faster. You also need to keep adjusting power in small increments or it all goes to pot. Just watch some cockpit shots on youtube and you can hear the engines being constantly adjusted till just before touch down than throttle to the wall.

ESzczesniak

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #627 on: February 17, 2013, 01:24:24 am »
...Remember that Naval Aviation is backwards from most other forms of aviation...

Nothing backwards about naval aviation.  This is how every aircraft approach works.  If you really want to land a Cessna right, this is how to do it.  Large tubeliners only get away being "backwards" because there is a relative lack of precision (they're aiming ot hit a 2,000' touchdown zone).  Combined with the long lag times for engine spools, it works better to fly speed with power and descent rate with pitch. 

Truth is though that it's all the same physics and behaves the same way.  So when they power up to speed up, what's really happening is their descent rate decreased, they drop the nose to stay on glideslope and as a result speed increases.  Just a different way of thinking aobut things given how relatively slow it all happens in these birds.

SpazSinbad

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #628 on: February 17, 2013, 03:23:40 am »
My initial basic/advanced flying training was with the RAAF (from late 1967 through all of 1968) even though I was an RAN 'about to be pilot' (which had no such training facilities). Once we were back at NAS Nowra after about 15 months of ground school / flight training in the RAAF we had to adjust to how the Navy do their landings. Believe me - it is different. I'll wager many GA pilots are taught many things that are either: all the one way or the other; or a mixture of both. However it is clear that as far as I know the RAAF in conventional aircraft (not their Hornets for example) use their method, which is: reducing airspeed on final and increasing flap as required to maintain glideslope with throttle movements as necessary to smoothly approach FLARE and touchdown within the required zone.

A NAVY method is similar to a 'short field landing method' taught in the RAAF when I was Basic Flight Training with them in a Winjeel. My instructor happened to be a Gannet pilot (who later went on to fly Trackers) and he could not WAIT to get to demo a Navy approach to me. When it was possible I would do these short field landing approaches starting out with full flap from the beginning at five knots above stall speed (for the Winjeel a radial prop trainer) and with the nose well down, maintain a constant glide path to aim to hit the numbers on the runway, with that five knots available for a big nose pull up for the flare - land immediately (no floating). That was fun.  ;D

BTW the Winjeel was a tail dragger with an unlockable tail wheel. Forget to lock the tailwheel downwind, before entering the circuit was best, and boy oh boy you were in for a fun ride upon landing in any kind of adverse conditions. The tailwheel could be unlocked with full forward stick in flight (aerobatics); but necessary to unlock it whilst taxiing, which was difficult with the view not good, with that big radial prop up high and the tail down on the ground. Locking was achieved by momentarily pulling the stick back in your stomach completely, so best done at slow airspeed, or more likely when taxiing.
_____________

I guess it is worthwhile adding that the RAAF Advanced (Jet) Trainer of that era was the dual seat Vampire (Winjeel also dual seat/side by side). Once again the circuit/approach had a similar method. The RAAF Vampire had a more or less a straight wing, and not that many vices except: NO Spinning (unrecoverable) and a very slow to accelerate jet engine, managed only by the pilot. Over fuel (advance throttle too quickly) and the engine would rumble and howl but NOT accelerate until throttle reduced to have the noise stop and then more slowly advance throttle. There was a minimum RPM to have on finals so as to NOT get too far behind the long acceleration time. Consequently Vampire approaches tended to be a little on the low side (but not too low) with high RPM, so getting the airspeed to landing KIAS early was good, with full flap early good also; but YMMV. Same method as Winjeel though with reducing airspeed, minimal throttle (but above min. RPM) and lower flaps incrementally for the smooth approach, flare to touchdown.

Once at NAS Nowra we were able to first demonstrate our knowledge of 'how to fly the RAAF' way on the RAN FAA Navy Vampire Trainers but quickly shown how to 'sort of' fly the meatball, at about a constant ten knots above landing speed, so that we had energy to do the required flare before touchdown (the Vampire could not carry out a Naval Style landing - no flare). The approach was always going to be a bit dodgy 'flying the meatball' but it was to get us in touch with the Navy way of doing things.

We had to contend with the main west/east runway having a horrendous downdraught at the approach end of RW 26 - even in relatively light winds - due to a deep gully on the approach to the airfield on a 'mesa' in a bowl above lower surrounding terrain, that quickly went higher to the west of the airfield. Westerly winds were turbulent due this terrain to the west; which turbulence was increased by the gully. Many aircraft were lost with fatalities over the years; but not in the A4G/Macchi era due to the better engine and flight controls/response of these aircraft. The Sea Venom was a much more robust, able to carrier land, larger version of the Vampire with better engine response (I have about 100 hours on it but no deck landings). It suffered from poor visibility out the front in landing config; but in operational use the Observer in the right hand seat (who operated the air to air radar for interception all weather night) would call out the airspeed to the pilot, who could concentrate then on the view via a tight circuit, short straightaway.

I had no Observer, making my 'ashore only' circuits a little tricky, due to having to look inside and down for the airspeed, which was more or less constant with full flap at base turn till touchdown. The AoA Indexer in the Skyhawk was terrific, allowing pilots to always be looking at 'meatball, lineup and airspeed (Optimum Angle of Attack) all the way to touchdown.

My point about the downdraught was that it kept us very honest and precise during our approaches to land at NAS Nowra. In similar fashion the carrier approach method does the same. Recall the A-4 Skyhawk has a delta wing so that when the aircraft is dirtied up for landing, but underpowered and getting slow, it will go vertically down on that big DOWN elevator in the sky (that often is TOO CLOSE to the ground). :D Therefore our constant speed (for the non-carrier capable / no AoA Indexer aircraft) approaches were very precise. To get slow in the downdraught and underpowered could mean death, as some earlier pilots (in Furies, Venoms) discovered, sadly.

Brings to mind a story about the first RAAF Caribou to appear at NAS Nowra, attempting to demonstrate a short landing on that notorious RW 26, and how it ended up in a bad landing before the numbers, breaking the back of the aircraft, with the wings flopping broken onto the runway with some injuries to the crew. It seemed they were not paying attention to the regular ATC warning during their approach about the downdraught. So you can do all the right things and still be caught out. Best to fly the Navy Way - as described.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 08:52:30 am by SpazSinbad »
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SpazSinbad

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #629 on: February 17, 2013, 05:27:04 am »
To keep me honest here are some other A4G pilot views: [my comments in brackets]

I'll also add that Peter is a former A4G pilot with many deck landings, from about my own era, whilst John (JB) comes later and was a RAAF trained (as well as the usual basic/advanced flight trained) QFI but I don't believe he has any deck landings because by the time he became an A4G pilot, A4G ops aboard HMAS Melbourne had ceased. He may have done touch and goes aboard (A4Gs no longer able to be catapulted at the end) but certainly he did FCLP on that notorious RW 26 AT NIGHT in strong westerly winds! POWER POWER POWER! :D VF-805 pilots were required to be as ready as possible to embark at short notice.

Attitude for Airspeed. Power for Rate of Descent? 20 Feb 2010 By Marty

http://www.flight.org/blog/2010/02/20/attitude-for-airspeed-power-for-rate-of-descent/

“...Peter, an Emirates 777 pilot [ex-A4G], posted the following:
‘Real aviators landed airplanes on ships by flying alpha (angle of attack) and varying power to control the sink rate. Pilots of the blue persuasion [RAAF] insisted on landing on long runways by using power to control airspeed and attitude to control the sink rate. I like the navy way!’
_____________________

John Bartels (of QF30 fame), and now an A380 Captain [ex-A4G], said:
‘The RAAF teaches power for speed, and attitude for glidepath. It’s easy to understand, works, and it’s accurate. And it then translates to every other aircraft type that they use, so you don’t have to learn another method.

        The navy actually flies both an AoA approach, and an airspeed controlled by power approach [my comment: but only for emergency 'higher than normal approach speed/weight' or whatever the emergency requirements required]. Flying alpha in something like an A4 was difficult to learn and hard to do accurately, but it allowed pilots to fly way down on the back of the drag curve… well below where any sensible person would want to be flying. It allowed you to arrive on the ship with the minimum energy… an absolute necessity. On shore bases it’s used for practice, but if you want to make air force style smooth landings, then you needed to be a bit faster, and so use the other method.’ [This style of landing not required usually for A4G pilots who would use the portable mirror ashore to keep in practice as much as possible, landing after every sortie using this mirror/carrier approach method.]

[MARTY (Blogger):] JB’s early flying experience was gained in Skyhawks and other fast navy jets in an environment that required aircraft be flown in a particular manner. However interesting, I’m not quite sure the technique applies to training aircraft!

         In typical JB style, he gives us another point of view validating the military-style ‘attitude for profile’ method: [HPA = High Precautionary Approach or Engine Out Forced Landing]

Also from the A4G. [HPA] ‘Put 170 mils on the gunsight (just a setting, don’t worry about it). Hold the cross hairs (pipper) on the end of the runway, and don’t let it move. Control speed by varying the drag (gear, flaps, speedbrakes). Approach IAS… around 200-220 kts. Start flare at 400 feet AGL....’”
______________________

JB describes a very general way to HPA above. However what is more likely for the A4G is the 160 KIAS emergency approach, when the aircraft has controllable power but otherwise heavy landing weight higher than usually allowed or damaged airframe components. A4G NATOPS better describes these out of the ordinary approaches. No one will use them to get aboard a carrier.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 05:31:56 am by SpazSinbad »
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