Author Topic: vLSO Beta release  (Read 683941 times)

SpazSinbad

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1305 on: July 11, 2015, 09:43:54 am »
 ::) Yeah - I'm not used to a lot of new USN DL terms - tushie is one (for the back/rear end?).  ;D A Good CrotchShot is here:

http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6570.0;attach=13447;image

The FabFantom is a classic deck lander by all accounts - here is a 5Mb PDF about the USN carrier trials Early 1960:

http://aviationarchives.net/F-4H%20Carrier%20Suitability.pdf (5.3Mb)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 09:52:55 am by SpazSinbad »
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Paddles

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1306 on: July 11, 2015, 06:55:18 pm »
If the aircraft is not within acceptable parameters to arrest then it will be waved off by the LSO. To continue to arrest may cause damage to the aircraft and/or arrestor gear - if it is OFF the centreline by a margin and if it is pointing too far left or right NOT down the centreline. A combination of these two errors can be really catastrophic.
Spaz,
I'm curious how much of the centerline deviation is considered as 'landed left/right' in real life? My program currently uses 10 feet left/right limits, if the plane is out of these limits then the pilot's grade is lowered to a 'Fair' (if it was an otherwise perfect pass) with 'landed left/right' remarks in the logbook. That 10 feet limit was my personal decision because I had no info on this.  :)
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PhantomTweak

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1307 on: July 11, 2015, 07:43:46 pm »
Mr. Paddles, sir:
Your program is great! Works almost TOO well for me! :D
I think Mr. SpazSinbad not only meant distance from centerline, but direction off centerline also. I have no clue how much of either is too much, but from many messed up landings, I can say it takes very little deviation of either one to have the wires pull the bird WAY off to one side. I am nowhere near good enough to determine how much is too much by trying different angle/distance combinations. I will gladly leave that the ones that ARE that good.
Back to practice. Someday I will be good enough to start utilizing vLSO myself :D
Pat☺

SpazSinbad

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1308 on: July 12, 2015, 03:56:17 am »
 ;D 'Tweaker of many Phantoms' or' TushyPats'?  :o I would say start as soon as using the FCLP missions provided by vLSO PADDLES of much reknown. Fly during the day and work up to at least flying at twilight (or dawn if you prefer - dare I say 'the crack of dawn'?)  ;D but anyways FCLP works for new carrier pilots and it will work for you. Expecting to go out there and do the deed on a CVN without any other practice or knowledge is silly - IMHO. However one does survive the fatal crashes - unlike real life.

Perhaps if someone here who knows a real life LSO then some idea of what the limits are regarding off centreline landings and heading deviations that would be great. I'll attempt to find out but not certain of a result. At moment I have no idea about Hornet limits for example.

LONG AGO NOW when I was testing FCLP for said PADDLES (remember this is a test so I was ignoring incorrect calls somewhat and flying poorly because I was actually flying FCLP at night as seen in the video) - try it - it ain't easy for someone who does not look at the HUD otherwise - being olde schoole and all that.  ::)

Firstly is the 'twilight' to show what things look like - then the night - SHUDDER. See how one needs to concentrate? That is how real life NITE FCLP sharpens carrier pilots.

AND... use FULL SCREEN at BEST QUALITY to view the video please.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 04:02:36 am by SpazSinbad »
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SpazSinbad

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1309 on: July 12, 2015, 09:57:14 am »
An explanation via e-mail from a former USN LSO well experienced in all things NavAv. His text reminded me now that I have a video of a VX-23 test pilot at the 2014 HOOK meeting explaining what they do for testing aircraft at NAS Patuxent River. I THINK (I'll have to find the video and post the link) he says in the clip of the Goshawk T-45C arresting off center that if they go wider than 20 feet it takes a day to reset the single arrestor gear (or repair it) at the station - in all things as the test pilots take aircraft and other gear to their limits they have to be very careful - but it is fun he said. Meanwhile here is the former LSO explanation:

"The USN arresting gear engines used fleet wide have been the Mark 7 Mod 3 system.  The
Mod 4 is installed on CVN-76 and later.  They are essentially the same capability wise.
 
The two questions do not have single number answers.  This is due to the dynamic
variables of an arrested landing.
 
The cross deck pendant has a tensile load limit of about 96,000 lbs.  The arresting
gear engines have a 10,000 psi limit.
 
The arresting gear system is designed to handle any combination of off center hook
engagement and line up deviation up to those two limits.  The engines have built in
protection to prevent head to head collisions inside the engine itself due to deviant
arrested landings.
 
Whether either of the two limits is approached is mostly dependent upon two things,
touch down speed and relative head wind at touch down.  Higher than optimum touch down
speed is bad while higher relative head wind is good.  We assume that the arresting
gear is set to the correct weight for the airplane that is landing, (F/A-18A/B/C/D is
36,000 lbs).  If that is set wrong, as in too low, then the Constant Runout Valve
cannot function as designed and damage to the arresting gear engine may result, the
cross deck pendant may fail, or both. If it is set too high then structural damage to
the airplane may result.
 
If you want a single number for off center, use 20’.  That what is used as a maximum in
testing by the USN.  And 20’ is for a lined up airplane that is not drifting at
touchdown.
 The more drift present at touchdown the less distance off center can be
tolerated.
 
It would be a very rare event that a far off center touch down, or a significant
drifting airplane landing would occur.  The LSOs simply don’t let approaches outside
proper parameters past the wave off window for obvious reasons.

 
The ladder lines on a CV flight deck landing area are 80’ apart, which means if you
touch down 20’ off center you are really doing a shit job of piloting.  We Naval
Aviators are way TOO good to attempt that even without the LSOs keeping that from
happening if we tried it."

Here is the video which explains 'off center engagements' (17 to no more than 20 feet) at the time on the first URL:

Carrier Suitability F-35C SR&R Hook14

=318



« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 10:08:12 am by SpazSinbad »
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Paddles

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1310 on: July 12, 2015, 07:10:21 pm »
Spaz,
Your ability to find exact useful information always amazes me!  ;D
So, I guess increasing the limit to, say, 15..17' would be just fine for the simulation (assuming there's no drift).

PhantomTweak,
Don't be afraid to learn carrier pattern. I suggest you start with the 'FCLP Missions pack vol.2' (found at Avsim.com library) - flying through the hoops should help you develop 'the feeling of the pattern' (see the picture).

After that you can practice dusk and night passes, as shown on Spaz's video.

Believe me, once mastered FCLP, landing aboard the ship will be a piece of cake  ;D
And vLSO is your friend  ;)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 07:14:33 pm by Paddles »
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PhantomTweak

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1311 on: July 12, 2015, 07:53:18 pm »
Thank you to both of you for the sudden influx of data my poor ol' tired brain now must assimilate :D
Seriously, though, I have DL'd the FCLP pack 2 from AvSim, and will get on it as soon and as hard as my time permits.
My problem isn't the book-learning, it's the actual muscle-memory needed. I can usually quote the right section of the F/A-18C NATOPS from memory, and if not I know where to go look to find what I need. I just need to put that book knowledge into practice. And as Mr. Sinbad said, thank goodness crashes aren't fatal, just grossly annoying.
Having gone through all that explanation, I do have a question regarding the carrier pattern. The NATOPS just says "Approach and pass the carrier close aboard to starboard..." when heading into the break. Ok, great. I know starboard and port, no sweat. Just HOW close is "Close"? Just on the canopy rail as I look out the cockpit? !/2 way down the wing? On the wingtip, so I can see it as the wing goes over it? See what I mean? Where, in reference to MY POV, do I place the boat/FCLP runway? I know the downwind is 1.75-2 NMi to port. Got that. I know the 180 is just where the LSO platform becomes visible, or about 45° abaft the plane. So on and so on, but the initial approach to the break matters as to how tight the bank angle is, etc etc. SO! How close IS close??
I'll wager the answer is in the FCLP pack I just DL'd, I just need to run through the hoops once to see it, I just thought I'd throw the question out there, as it's been on my mind a lot lately...
Thanks to you both again for all the advice and assistance. I understand the LSO is your friend, but I am a very proud man, most Marines are, deservedly or not, and the vLSO ratings I got the first 6 times I used it were just too hard to take for me. I will start using it when I can hit the target spot more than miss it. Till then, I will beat myself up over the mistakes I make, rather than have vLSO do it for me :D
Pat☺

Paddles

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1312 on: July 12, 2015, 09:05:19 pm »
Yeah, muscle memory is something you'll want to develop. The most difficult part (to me at least) is the navy style of rudder/stick operating, which is rather counter-intuitive... Just do a good dozen (or two) of hoops flying and you will definitely grasp the idea, and your skills will be getting better.

As for how close is close... I don't know, just aim at the island or slightly to the right (sorry, starboard)...  ;)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 09:07:24 pm by Paddles »
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SpazSinbad

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1313 on: July 13, 2015, 12:13:52 am »
'Paddles' I do not know how to answer the question about 'off centre engagements' other than reading the advice given that your current 10 feet limit is good and that deserves a downgrade. After that I would suggest that anything beyond the ten feet is a crash in the making and deserves a no grade/WAVE OFF but how do you get that 'after the fact'?

As for your comment "...The most difficult part (to me at least) is the navy style of rudder/stick operating, which is rather counter-intuitive..." I do not follow. Jets do not need rudder in ordinary circumstances.

FSX is a simulation. Some users like to go to the nth degree to do things by the numbers and to find out what those 'numbers' might be. Being from a different time all we did was by visual means - looking outside at the view to gauge what was required. Look out is always a good thing in a fast jet and the method is/was called 'visual [reference] flying' using the horizon and bits of the cockpit to gauge 'power plus attitude equals performance'. Sure that is not easy or probably even possible in FSX (for many reasons). So users need to rely on 'numbers' to even get close. That is where in this instance as 'Paddles' is saying that FCLP is a deck landers friend. One becomes used to the pattern. The night pattern is 1,000 feet above the runway rather than 600 feet so there is that difference though. However it is possible to do day pattern FCLP at 600 feet to get the 'feel' of the day carrier pattern at the CVN. It is possible to concentrate on the visual aspect of the FCLP pattern to develop your good habits.

There is a thread - if not this one - where SLUDGE has provided a video and a text explanation for the numbers for the CVN pattern in a Hornet. This is great value and I highly recommend it. For most even getting close to these ideal numbers will be difficult. This is where perhaps (I can only guess - I am not you) that 'visual flying' helps a lot to 'fudge' the numbers in the situation you are in - which is never ideal. One has to learn how to adjust the pattern that you find yourself flying - to perhaps salvage it (within reason) or to make it just that much better than the last one or whatever is required.

Pilots making a shithotbreak are not flying numbers as such but adjusting adjusting adjusting all the time. So to answer the question about 'the break'. It is a good idea to have the CVN visible under the port wing so to speak before breaking left. The real world may have a number of aircraft on the downwind so that your break may be delayed until you see the other aircraft downwind however usually the sections of two (mostly) are spaced by ATC beforehand. This is where NOT flying a long groove can help the next section to land without a wave off foul deck because the aircraft(s) in front were 'long in the groove' to disrupt the pattern.

Attempting to explain the carrier landing pattern in words takes a lot of typing and probably does not achieve much. I'll look for the SLUDGE explanation video. I know there is/was an excellent FSXBA video about FCLP/carrier landings - I'm not sure if it is still available. So there is a heap of stuff on this forum about 'carrier landings' and online videos to explain it also. The big deal is to practice practice practice. Real world pilots need to do this - they need to do FCLP to learn / refam themselves with the process. Carrier landings are not easy and they are even more difficult in FSX because of the limitations of the sim and the limits of your computer equipment - especially your screen size/resolution. Be patient - chide yourselves lots to do better next time and NEVER GIVE UP! :-)

Of one of the many good sim carrier landing sites online the graphic from this one to my mind is very good to visualise the method as shown:

http://www.users.on.net/~jase_ash/styled-9/styled-6/index.html

THIS IS AN EXCELLENT FCLP/CARRIER DECK LANDING TUTORIAL VIDEO: http://www.fsxblueangels.com/videoscreen%20ok3.html
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 12:44:25 am by SpazSinbad »
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Paddles

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1314 on: July 13, 2015, 05:41:38 am »
"...the navy style of rudder/stick operating, which is rather counter-intuitive..." I do not follow. Jets do not need rudder in ordinary circumstances.
Surely I meant 'throttle/stick'. I'm terribly sorry for this mistype  :(
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SpazSinbad

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1315 on: July 13, 2015, 05:53:37 am »
 ;D Fair enuf - you had me bamboozled.  ::) And I think this is one of the SLUDGE videos by Sludge himself?

« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 06:02:11 am by SpazSinbad »
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Johan

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1316 on: July 13, 2015, 06:27:32 am »
Spaz,
So, I guess increasing the limit to, say, 15..17' would be just fine for the simulation (assuming there's no drift).

Hi Paddles,

I like the idea of your increasing the lateral limit to 17'...this will be forgiving some of my landings!
Can't wait for the next beta. Thanks you all for this beautiful work.

Johan

PhantomTweak

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1317 on: July 13, 2015, 06:39:57 am »
Well, thanks to you two, I spent then entire morning doing bounces at El Centro. Out of 9 tries I got 3 landings I would give the name to. Tonight, I will try again, probably at Coupville. I like the scenery better. After 30 years in Yuma, which I despise with a passion, El Centro just looks too much like it to enjoy, for me. Great FCLP scenery that you provided, don't get me wrong, I just hate everything else! What little there IS to look at, anyway.
GAD I HATE YUMA!! :D

Back at it! I'll keep y'all posted, and read up, whether NATOPS or that VAQ-113 link you provided, between times.
I bet my score gets better over time. I hope so, anyway...
Pat☺

Victory103

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1318 on: July 14, 2015, 12:00:10 am »
Paddles, any deviation from centerline should continued to be graded. I have one experience listening on comms  turning circles in "starboard delta" during a CAG CQ event. Air Boss came up on the LSO freq to "kindly" remind the Tomcat/Bug drivers that the nose WILL BE on the painted lines.
DUSTOFF
ARMY PROPS

PhantomTweak

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Re: vLSO Beta release
« Reply #1319 on: July 14, 2015, 07:00:27 am »
Hey gang!
I'm getting there, but seem to have run into a small problem. I don't know if this is the right place, or if I should address the author directly, but when I installed the FCLP Pack#2, it looked great. The carrier boxes on the runways were perfectly made. The next day (today? Last night? Anyway) I went back for more, and the yellow paint was gone. No more yellow "X"'s on the runway, no carrier box painted nothing. The IFOLS and ILS and all were stil there, but now, NONE of my sceneries have any of this stuff any more. I don't suppose anyone else has run into this problem, have they? I disabled the two new FCLP sceneries from the package, but no difference. Even on older sceneries I had, no yellow paint, no X's, no boxes, nada. SOMEthing got changed.
No, I added/subtracted nothing else in the meantime, btw. I'll keep looking!
Pat☺