vLSO Beta release

[SpazSinbad]

Tregarth your calculations are correct as long as the ship direction makes the wind the ship creates more or less go down the angle deck when the natural wind is factored in. So we always assume this - that the ship 'steams' into the natural wind at a certain speed to make the REQUIRED WOD (down the angle deck centreline).

And congrats to 'Sludge' - sounds like a great job - that area must be amazing scenically and I guess very wet and cold sometimes.

[Orion]

Can you please clarify Wind over Deck?  If the carrier is progressing at 25 kts ( I think that is the AICarriers ship speed) and the F-18 landing speed is 175KIAS the the ship to aircraft closing speed is 150kts.

If the wind speed is 20 kts then I think the Wind over Deck is 25 + 20 = 45kts. 

So the plane's landing speed on the carrier is 130 kts.

Do I have this right?  If not how are the sums worked out?

As SpazSinbad wrote, you're correct in the case where the wind direction, runway heading, and carrier course are aligned.  If I understand correctly, wind over deck is the effective headwind component along the ship's runway, which should be given by the following equation:

wind over deck = wind speed * cos(wind direction - runway heading) + ship speed * cos(angle between runway heading and course)

Essentially it's the same calculation you did, but adjusted to account for cases where wind direction, runway heading, and carrier course are different.

[SpazSinbad]

'Orion' has it.

Another consideration is that when a carrier has to make WOD in NIL WIND, then the wind will not go exactly down the centreline of the angle deck and that is the case under most conditions of low natural wind; because the ship moves the entire angle deck forward on their course always. That is why carrier approaches always require the 'nibble' to the right constantly to remain lined up (if lined up at the start) because the angle deck is moving always from left to right during the approach.

[Tregarth]

I appreciate the replies which makes WoD more clear.  Thank you for your help.

As I understand AICarriers the aircraft approach course = the carrier's initial Base Recovery course, but this can be varied.  Using the weather settings in FSX where the wind vector can be set, what would be a sensible wind speed to set an optimal WoD given that I think the carrier's speed is set at 25 kts , is this right?

The reason I ask the question is because of Sludge's comments "any wind <35kts is not right".  When I fly I set the wind vector to say 15/270, turn the plane to 270, then place the carrier and try to land.

Is this the right way to go about things?  I could set the wind speed to, say, 40kts but with a ship's speed of 25kts the crew would not last long on the deck!

At the other end of the scale, if I set the wind speed to +15 kts on HMS Victorious and land a Swordfish (not that easy) the combined wind speed across the deck pushes the plane backwards so I have to keep 25% throttle on to stay stationary, but the take off distance is really short!

Best regards,

Tregarth

[SpazSinbad]

IF you require 30 Knots WOD and the AI carrier is tootling along at 25 knots - must be more or less into the wind (or slightly to the right so that the combined natural wind and ship speed INTO the wind - offset to the right slightly) gives 30 knot wind down the angle deck centreline - as close as can be fudged (in FSIM).

CVN LSOs discuss the issue a lot in the past in their newsletters (no longer available) and they discovered that only ONE of the three (IIRC) Wind Indicators gave the correct wind speed/direction reliably. Sadly as I recall now the slightly incorrect bridge indicator meant that sometimes the CVN was not heading quite correctly. These are small details in a big picture though. Sometimes the CVN will NOT be on the best course for WOD for operational reasons and another reason for the LSO to give wind speed (and crosswind details if relevant). LSOs quite rightly gnaw this WOD issue constantly to get the best possible outcomes.

As 'Sludge' is saying too much WOD is counter productive. There are a few posts about this issue on this forum.

[Sludge]

I appreciate the replies which makes WoD more clear.  Thank you for your help.

As I understand AICarriers the aircraft approach course = the carrier's initial Base Recovery course, but this can be varied.  Using the weather settings in FSX where the wind vector can be set, what would be a sensible wind speed to set an optimal WoD given that I think the carrier's speed is set at 25 kts , is this right?

The reason I ask the question is because of Sludge's comments "any wind <35kts is not right".  When I fly I set the wind vector to say 15/270, turn the plane to 270, then place the carrier and try to land.

Tre...

OK, here's what I meant by the WOD comment. Since we can't get the FSX carriers to have an ACTUAL 3.5 BASIC meatball (~3.1 EFFECTIVE g/s because of ship motion forward), we are stuck with 4.12 BASIC angle or whatever Paddles calculated. So we have high WOD to make glideslope match what NATOPS says, if you want to be a stickler for NATOPS. Keep in mind that your altitude "hits" (ie. ~450 at the 90) will be higher no matter what WOD you use. After Paddles found the slightly higher Basic Angle, setting 35kts WOD worked the best for me. It just meant I was longer TIG but the corrections were smoother and I could hold g/s easier.

To simplify things, here's how I used to setup my approaches:
I set the carrier first, then use the carrier's course (base recovery course) minus 8 and you'll have the angled deck (down-the-angle). That's what we use in the sim when doing CQs.
27 kts WOD = 12 kts down the angle and 15 kts ships speed.
35 kts WOD =  15 kts down the angle and 20 kts ships speed.
Start with the 27 kts WOD and see how that works, then try 35 kts WOD, then use the one that works the best for you.

Hope that helps.  And thanks for the good words, so far the job is going great. If you need any clarification, holler and I'll try to answer.

Later
Sludge

[Tregarth]

I appreciate your replies and the numbers which are most useful and what I wanted, hopefully they will help other F-18 pilots too.

Sludge, my wife and I will be passing through Vancouver in a week or so (Alaska cruise) so I will give you a wave whilst there. 

The job sounds as if it was made for you, Good Luck,

Cheers,

Tregarth

[Johan]

Sludge,

Welcome back and congrats on the job. Whidbey and surroundings, up to Comox, are my favorite places for NATOPS.
I am still flying your plane.

Johan

[Sludge]

Tre...

I appreciate your replies and the numbers which are most useful and what I wanted, hopefully they will help other F-18 pilots too.

Sludge, my wife and I will be passing through Vancouver in a week or so (Alaska cruise) so I will give you a wave whilst there. 

The job sounds as if it was made for you, Good Luck,

Cheers,

Tregarth

Thanks bud. Ya, definitely... you should see where I work and the area where I'm at. Who knows you might see some Grizzlys doing form work, heading out to the Olympic Mountains.

Also, yes, the job was made for a Hornet Nerd like myself. I had to laugh when I first got on the job and one of the instructors was teaching the AMRAAM range rings to one of the students and they call it the "nerd circle".

Enjoy the vacation.

Later
Sludge

[Sludge]

Johan...

Sludge,

Welcome back and congrats on the job. Whidbey and surroundings, up to Comox, are my favorite places for NATOPS.
I am still flying your plane.

Johan

Thanks. Ya, its a great place to do pattern work in FSX.  Good God in real life, Coupeville is a damn Hornet's Nest. I'm sure that's where most of the Whidbey protesters come from. I used to take the Coupeville-Pt Townsend ferry for my commute and somedays there were 4-5 Grizzlys in the pattern and they are vury loud.

Good deal. Always nice to know someone is still flying a Sludge Hornet somwhere. Haha. I may get back into things as the summer goes along, its just soo doggone nice out here, all the golf, biking, hiking and stuff, my time will be limited. Will see how the summer goes, and I may jump back into-the-seat after I find a real house.

Later
Sludge

[PhantomTweak]

I used to take the Coupeville-Pt Townsend ferry for my commute and somedays there were 4-5 Grizzlys in the pattern and they are vury loud.

To me, it's the sound of freedom! I'll listen to jets to fly over all day and night long. Doesn't bother me in the least

Will see how the summer goes, and I may jump back into-the-seat after I find a real house.

Just wait till winter. I'll wager you spend a tiny bit less time outside then Will give you plenty of time to work on you Hornet!

And welcome home. Your new job sounds like it was made just for you to come along and take.  Glad you enjoy t so much. As they say, if you are doing what you love, you don't WORK a day in your life.

Have fun always!
Pat☺

[Striker]

This is in case you might have missed the release of a new FSX NOLF complete rebuild in TX. The Author, Allen Laughmiller, released NALF Orange Grove on July 4th. KNOG is a FCLP support airfield for NAS Kingsville which provides primary jet training (and carrier qualification) for new Navy, Marine, and selected foreign pilots. It features a tower, fire station, POL facility, access roads, new terrain masks, and parking for 15 transient aircraft. The runway 13 ILS is active and has a published approach procedure as well the Tacan approaches. vLSO integration would really bring KNOG to life.

knog-nalf_orange_grove_v2_0.zip is located at http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=knog&CatID=root&Go=Search

Allen Laughmiller is the Author for both KNOG and the June 2015 release of his NAS Kingsville complete rebuild.

[PhantomTweak]

A question about Carrier recoveries, if I may:

That is why carrier approaches always require the 'nibble' to the right constantly to remain lined up (if lined up at the start) because the angle deck is moving always from left to right during the approach.

Is this normally done with rudder alone, or is it done by holding a slight bank angle to try and match the motion, or just short, sharp right coordinated turns?
I use the rudder only method. Probably incorrect, is why I ask.
Thanks in advance for ANY answers that may be thrown my way...
Pat☺

[SpazSinbad]

'tweaker of the fantoms'   I cannot say from direct experience - nor do I believe I have read such a concept in the HORNET NATOPS (about using rudders etc.). However I can speak from my old experience deck landing aboard HMAS Melbourne in an A4G Skyhawk some forty odd years ago now. AND for about more than a decade I have been researching (mostly online) about 'how to deck land' so that I can get up to speed on how 'carrier deck landings' are carried out today and into the future (with some truly astonishing technology as evidenced in the X-47B and F-35C over the last year or so).

Back to the question. The CVN angle deck is 9 degrees? offset from the ship fore and aft axis. As the CVN moves forward 'into the wind' (slightly offset however to cause the WOD Wind Over the Deck to go down the angle deck - not the axial) then the offset runway is constantly moving from left to right as the aircraft approaches down the angle deck centreline. In an A4G the pilot would 'nibble' to the right constantly to get back to the centreline. However the angle deck was only 5.5 degrees so less of an issue there.

As has been pointed out by 'Sludge' and others it is possible (and real Hornet pilots use this method) to put the HUD Velocity Vector on the 'crotch' of the deck of the CVN (where the angle deck forward edge joins the axial deck) [search forum for 'crotch' will likely find this method] so that part of this line up problem is taken care of. However.... by 'in close' the Hornet must be lined up fore and aft along the angle deck centreline and on the angle deck centreline (within limits known to the LSO). If the aircraft is not within acceptable parameters to arrest then it will be waved off by the LSO. To continue to arrest may cause damage to the aircraft and/or arrestor gear - if it is OFF the centreline by a margin and if it is pointing too far left or right NOT down the centreline. A combination of these two errors can be really catastrophic.

Late line up corrections are not tolerated usually but they do occur to give conniptions to those concerned about them (LSOs and AirBoss). Best to be on centreline, lined up fore and aft (no yaw - no rudder) and on glideslope with centre ball and at Optimum Angle of Attack - all the way.   I'll look for the 'crotch' now. Otherwise I have some real LSO comments about this method but not a full explanation - this comment is probably with the 'crotch' advice....

There are 9 search results on 'crotch' (without quote marks).

BTW this is not relevant to your HORNET question - however - new technology will be used by the SUPER HORNET and similarly (but slightly different) in the F-35C to make future carrier landings a lot easier so that ONLY line up is a problem.  Line up - being on centreline and lined up fore and aft - can never be fully resolved because of the movement of the carrier etc. Anyway this new tech in the Super Hornet is called MAGIC CARPET and has been tested for real on a carrier recently. The tech will be in Super Hornets in a few years. In the F-35C it is called 'delta flight path' and in both cases 'integrated direct lift control' is used. I think an explanation is on this forum. I guess search on 'carpet' will find it.

[PhantomTweak]

'tweaker of the fantoms'

That's me! Aero-1A, and the AN/AWG-10A/B/C. I aint afraid of no HAWG!
Now you know why the Phantoms had the big Phat Phront Phuselage     

Thank you very much for the answer! NOW I understand why they looked a little bit off alignment in all the screen shots. I kinda thought these guys were better than that but hey, what do I know? And just FYI I always thought the "Crotch" what the spot just abaft the Island. Learn something new every day! The Phantom pilots I met didn't really use the term a lot, as they didn't "aim" for it during landing. Of course, they didn't talk "with" us enlisted, so much as AT us. I read Approach Magazine avidly, but of course that's written by Naval Aviators FOR Naval Aviators, so they use a lot of jargon.

The CVN angle deck is 9 degrees?

I believe the ones used for FSX are 8°. I think (rarely though).

Best to be on centreline, lined up fore and aft (no yaw - no rudder) and on glideslope with centre ball and at Optimum Angle of Attack - all the way.

Annnnnd now you know why I don't use vLSO yet. I got tired of being yelled at. I need a LOT more practice, and with just a couple hours a day, and trying to help Peter with his endeavours...
Well, I do what I can!
Anyway, thanks again, you answered my question completely! I appreciate the quick response. And thank you for your Service, Sir. Our shop worked A-4 Radars (VMFAT-102), and the VTAS system as well as the F-4 radar (VMFAT-101). I first met my wife when she was down the nose of an A-4 decocooning it for Static Display in front of Yuma's main gate. I drove by on a tug about 10 times that day. I thought (still do ) she had a cute tushie. It wasn't until we were nearly married 10 years later she told me that that was her! I had gotten out and was working for VMFAT-401 at the time.
Pat☺