Author Topic: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD  (Read 181967 times)

Mike...

  • Guest
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #135 on: March 19, 2008, 09:06:53 pm »
From my Simflyers packages, only use the KORD.bgl file (not the Afcad) and only the one from the phase two package, the phase one file only corrects 9R/27L to 10/28. By the way, it goes in Scenery/Generic/scenery. But yeah, if you have that file and use any Afcad specifically for this new scenery, it should all work.

Quote
Mike, did you see the thread about KJFK? Are you happy with the fact that this one can be perfectly done with 2 afcads only, if this is the next scenery on board and if I am chosed again as "the afcad man"?

Two Afcads will do. Personally, I'm using just one right now (for the FRF scenery) and have no plans to change. This has to do with the other airports in the area. KEWR and KLGA. All three airports use a star in my sim. For KEWR this is from 11 to the 4's. For KLGA this is from 13 to 4. For KJFK, this is from the 13's to the 4's. Just so that New York traffic will more or less go in the same direction. Although it's pretty much all over the place. ;D I dunno, maybe it's just foolish, but it gives me piece of mind. Am looking forward to a new KFJK though!

b742f

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #136 on: March 19, 2008, 09:14:58 pm »
I just wish someone did a high quality PANC airport scenery!

harpsi

  • Beta tester
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #137 on: March 19, 2008, 09:53:24 pm »
Two Afcads will do. Personally, I'm using just one right now (for the FRF scenery) and have no plans to change. This has to do with the other airports in the area. KEWR and KLGA. All three airports use a star in my sim. For KEWR this is from 11 to the 4's. For KLGA this is from 13 to 4. For KJFK, this is from the 13's to the 4's. Just so that New York traffic will more or less go in the same direction. Although it's pretty much all over the place. ;D I dunno, maybe it's just foolish, but it gives me piece of mind. Am looking forward to a new KFJK though!

I use La Guardia from Imagine Sim but I don´t use KEWR from Simflyers. I simply don´t fly too much in that area. But if a JFK comes out, ok, like I said in some posts before, there will be tastes for afcad A (13 > 4) or afcad B (31 > 4). If winds are changing like for example 360/16, you will have a file for 04s and 13s in which you have tail wind at 13s, and if the sim chooses the opposite option, 22s and 31s you will have tail wind as well for 22s. Here the file 31 > 04 would help for sure, to eliminate the tail wind component.

harpsi

ESzczesniak

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 170
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #138 on: March 19, 2008, 10:02:10 pm »
Just more one word for the user ESzczesniak. You wrote in this thread below that to switch afcads is time consuming and you will not use that system, but it is strange that you were the one which asked for plan A when it was not done yet. :( See below:

>>>>>
Quote
Beyond that, the work that Harpsi has done is great, but for me will likely not be used because of the cumbersome process of switching AFCADS. 



harpsi



I believe in the same post you will find:

As for me, I'll be happy with out it.

I was mentioning it only in acknowledging that it is often used and those who want extreme realism might want it.  For me, I don't want to deal with possibilities of changing weather during a flight and a poor selection of runways as a result.

_Dre_

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #139 on: March 19, 2008, 10:02:19 pm »
Quote
With the program EditVoicepack, you can switch between those phrases. If you go to update the voicepack, you can choose between FAA and ICAO phraseology. If you choose FAA, you'll get Position and Hold. This is for the default ATC by the way.

That´s why I don´t hear those messages. Vatsim has no such messages. ;D ;D ;D

Mike, did you see the thread about KJFK? Are you happy with the fact that this one can be perfectly done with 2 afcads only, if this is the next scenery on board and if I am chosed again as "the afcad man"?

harpsi

JFK may not be as simple as it may seem because they use many different runway procedures sometimes all in the same day. Runway ops vary depending on time of day (crazy traffic in the mornings and evenings-to-night *rush hour*), it also varies depending on weather conditions (serious IFR conditions causes separation issues and brings ATC to its knees because of the proximity of LGA and EWR air traffic).

For example,
1) There are times when 31L is used for takeoffs only and 31R is for landings only with 4R/22L being inactive (similar to simwings' EGLL) *see link* http://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/1188136/M/

2) At other times while using the same runways (31L/31R) both sides are used for dual ops (arrv. and dep.), and during rush hours 4R/22L is opened as well for landings while 4L/22R is left inactive.

That's two afcads already for eg. 1 and 2. Example 1 wouldn't be the most popular among simmers because (believe it or not) the 13R curved approach (which would be closed for landings in eg.1) is much, much more exciting than the VOR 13L because the turn is much sharper and at a lower altitude as the end of the turn is almost literally right over the Runway threshold (experienced it for real in an Air Jamaica A321 at night and it was just as thrilling as it was nervewracking).

3) From my experience in travelling and from listening to ATC when they use the 4s and 22s: runway 4L/22R is used as a takeoff only runway while 4R/22L is only used for landings while the 13s and 31s are inactive and used for taxiing heavies (especially A340-500/600s  ;D they normally feel the wrath of ATC as they are too long for the tight taxiway turns in the area where the 13s/31s intersect 4L/22R).

I am guessing that a single regular non-star afcad could cater for 1) and 3) even though it would eliminate the 13R approach in 1) if the winds are blowing that way. But what about those who would want example 2) without the star system (no 4s/22s usage); wouldn't that be another afcad in itself. From my count that's 3 afcads already and that's not all the runway combos that are used.

So it might not be as simple as it seems, but I think if you just want one afcad as most users do then the best option (in my opinion) is to just make a regular non-star afcad using the parallels only with both L/R sides used for dual operations (meaning if the 13s/31s are in use then open both rnwys for takeoffs and landings, and when using the 4s and 22s do the same).

Just my 2 cents.

@Virtuali,
            If the next airport is JFK can we get an afcad or JFK forum as we have unintentionally taken over the KORD forum with JFK posts :).
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 05:10:58 am by _Dre_ »
Andre-FS9
AES Super User.





thepilot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #140 on: March 19, 2008, 10:31:57 pm »
Harpsi, I'm a little confused regarding those AFCADS.
Which one of them is the closest one to real world aviation?

harpsi

  • Beta tester
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #141 on: March 20, 2008, 03:37:13 am »
Harpsi, I'm a little confused regarding those AFCADS.
Which one of them is the closest one to real world aviation?

All of them. Just go to http://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/ and you will find everything.

harpsi

harpsi

  • Beta tester
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #142 on: March 20, 2008, 03:54:21 am »

JFK may not be as simple as it may seem because they use many different runway procedures sometimes all in the same day. Runway ops vary depending on time of day (crazy traffic in the mornings and evenings-to-night *rush hour*), it also varies depending on weather conditions (serious IFR conditions causes separation and issues brings ATC to its knees because of the proximity of LGA and EWR).

For example,
1) There are times when 31L is used for takeoffs only and 31R is for landings only with 4R/22L being inactive (similar to simwings' EGLL) *see link* http://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/1188136/M/

2) At other times while using the same runways (31L/31R) both sides are used for dual ops (arrv. and dep.), and during rush hours 4R/22L is opened as well for landings while 4L/22R is left inactive.

That's two afcads already for eg. 1 and 2. Example 1 wouldn't be the most popular among simmers because (believe it or not) the 13R curved approach (which would be closed for landings) is much, much more exciting than the VOR 13L because the turn is much sharper and at a lower altitude as the end of the turn is almost literally right over the Runway threshold (experienced it for real in an Air Jamaica A321 at night and it was just as thrilling as it was nervewracking).

3) From my experience in travelling and from listening to ATC when they use the 4s and 22s: runway 4L/22R is used as a takeoff only runway while 4R/22L is only used for landings while the 13s and 31s are inactive and used for taxiing heavies (especially A340-500/600s  ;D they normally feel the wrath of ATC as they are too long for the tight taxiway turns in the area where the 13s/31s intersect 4L/22R).

I am guessing that a single regular non-star afcad could cater for 1) and 3) even though it would eliminate the 13R approach in 1) if the winds are blowing that way. But what about those who would want example 2) without the star system (no 4s/22s usage); wouldn't that be another afcad in itself. From my count that's 3 afcads already and that's not all the runway combos that are used.

So it might not be as simple as it seems, but I think if you just want one afcad as most users do then the best option (in my opinion) is to just make a regular non-star afcad using the parallels only with both L/R sides used for dual operations (meaning if the 13s/31s are in use then open both rnwys for takeoffs and landings, and when using the 4s and 22s do the same).


Hi Dre

All the possibilities you mentioned are not problematic to simulate in 2 afcads because you can just put the V out of the square. For FS purposes, the problem starts when one side of the runway is ONLY used for takeoff and the other side of the runway ONLY for landing. For example you have 04R/22L at JFK. When the winds are set for 04R you just land there and when they are set for 22L you just land there also. The problem would be if you set the winds for 04R and you just use it for landing and you set the winds for 22L and you only use that runway for takeoff and not for landing, or in the opposite way arround, because when you just change the winds, FS will move traffic to the opposite side, but since you can only have the V before the square just for one type of operation, you would be a non-real life procedure. The 2 afcads is just for the beginning of the star. You can make it like this:

04/22 (real runways)
05/23 (fake)
06/24 (fake)
...
...
13/31 (real runways)

and hier you can use 04+13 or 22+31 but never 04+31 or 22+13,

or you can have this:

31/13 (real runways)
32/14 (fake)
33/15 (fake)
...
...
04/22 (real runways)

and hier you can use 31+04 or 13+22, but never 31+22 or 04+13.

This is how the star system is made.

For KORD if you go to http://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/ you will see that plan R has
- Land:14R/10
- TO  : 22L/9R/4L   
You may ask: how is possible to have 04L and 22L at the same time when they are going in opposite directions? SImple: you must have light winds of course, otherwise you would take off with tail wind. I left this experience out on my afcad files for now, which means that 04L is closed for plan R, but it can be done. You just begin the star like this:

04L/22R (real)
05/23 (fake)
...
until you reach the last runways which are 14/32s (real). After you reach 14/32s you continue the star:
15/33 (fake)
16/34 (fake)
until you reach 22/04 again with the runway left which will be 22L/04R.

I am almost sure that this can be done and then you have for example 04L for take off and you move down and you have 22L for take off as well.  ;D ;D

This is the reason of several afcads which sometimes are needed if you just want real life operations.

I am happy that you also not dislike this way of viewing things. It is a question of realism versus "simulism". When some people say that they don´t want to change afcads between flights, they are right of course, but it is a little bit unlucky if you would need that in a flight with 45 minutes or even 2 hours. Of course if you make a departure from Paris or Munich to KORD, after that you are going to make your dinner or to read a book, and you just come for landing in the next morning after a flight with 6 or 8 hours, maybe the winds have already changed of course. :P

harpsi
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 03:58:21 am by harpsi »

b742f

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #143 on: March 20, 2008, 06:14:53 pm »
you dont really need several afcads for that... why not just find out the wind direction, open up the afcad program, and close both ends depending on what type of ops you want. Yes if users dont know how to use an afcad program the need for multiple afcads is there... but why not one base afcad with all the features, and a readme saying "if winds are X then open up X runway for departures and close X runway for landings.

BBriscoe

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #144 on: March 20, 2008, 09:17:23 pm »
I'm looking for one 'decent' AFCAD, I don't want to be fiddling round with 14 different ones...that's a bit ridiculous.

I installed AFCAD X, and whilst on approach for 27L, I had an aircraft on the runway taking off (and I wasn't told to go around), I had two aircraft crossing the runway in front of me as I was landing, and everyone seemed to be taking off in various directions and across each other.

Surely there must be a better solution than this?!

Ben

harpsi

  • Beta tester
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #145 on: March 20, 2008, 11:07:01 pm »
I'm looking for one 'decent' AFCAD, I don't want to be fiddling round with 14 different ones...that's a bit ridiculous.

I installed AFCAD X, and whilst on approach for 27L, I had an aircraft on the runway taking off (and I wasn't told to go around), I had two aircraft crossing the runway in front of me as I was landing, and everyone seemed to be taking off in various directions and across each other.

Surely there must be a better solution than this?!

Ben

Maybe there are users which don´t find it ridiculous... did you think about it?

About taking off in various directions, that´s how it works in real life. The only solution in which I can disagree for some of the files is the application of the diamon technic. What you said is a consequence of it. You have to live with that even with an afcad with all runways opened and non-shortened.

harpsi

harpsi

  • Beta tester
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #146 on: March 20, 2008, 11:13:44 pm »
you dont really need several afcads for that... why not just find out the wind direction, open up the afcad program, and close both ends depending on what type of ops you want. Yes if users dont know how to use an afcad program the need for multiple afcads is there... but why not one base afcad with all the features, and a readme saying "if winds are X then open up X runway for departures and close X runway for landings.

I explain you why not just to close the runways with the V before the square. FS chooses runways depending on a certain number of items. If you just want to take off from 32 L, 04 L and 09 R at the same time and with non-shortened runways, aircrafts will prefer the longest one and the closest one to the aprons. If you just change the winds, maybe they will prefer 32 L for landing when the runway is used just for take off and everything will be a mess after that. Well, just try yourself and you will see the results.

harpsi

BBriscoe

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #147 on: March 21, 2008, 12:25:11 am »
I'm all up for realism, but I find fiddling about with files embedded in the heart of FS DURING  a flight to be completely unrealistic. Surely you want to turn up at an airport and be assigned your approach as you would in the real world?!

Anyway, the AFCAD that came with the original in terms of runways that were used seemed fine, is there anyway that could be modified to include the correct parking spots and to get rid of aircraft running over each other?


harpsi

  • Beta tester
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #148 on: March 21, 2008, 12:56:14 am »
I'm all up for realism, but I find fiddling about with files embedded in the heart of FS DURING  a flight to be completely unrealistic. Surely you want to turn up at an airport and be assigned your approach as you would in the real world?!

Anyway, the AFCAD that came with the original in terms of runways that were used seemed fine, is there anyway that could be modified to include the correct parking spots and to get rid of aircraft running over each other?



Just follow all teh discussion and you will find the answer ;)

harpsi

rooster

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: NEW AFCAD PACKAGE FOR KORD
« Reply #149 on: March 21, 2008, 06:29:17 am »


Just a note to BBriscoe. I am sooooooooo with you on this one my friend. I do not wish to detract from Harpsi's superb effort, indeed, as you see from my previous post I thought he was a member of the team. There is no doubt that this is an excellent product but the AFCAD question needs to be sorted and I think BBriscoe has hit the nail on the head with his posts above. I believe that this is all most simmers would want, including me, so perhaps a modification to the original AFCAD is the best way forward to achieve this.


Best regards
Rooster