Author Topic: LAX  (Read 108957 times)

Frank Lindberg

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Re: LAX
« Reply #105 on: September 17, 2011, 06:22:06 pm »
MS Flight is not guranteed to be released, Train sim version 2 was canned half way through developement, MS Flight could very well go the same way, regardless of the cost.

Don't expect that.  Flight is certainly farther in development than half-way.  At this point, it wouldn't make economic sense to can the develop. ;)

Yes, maybe next year  ;) I can't wait... then it's time for FSX to die... haha
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Bruce Hamilton

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Re: LAX
« Reply #106 on: September 17, 2011, 06:39:58 pm »
At this point, it wouldn't make economic sense to can the develop. ;)

We're talking about the company that canned their ACES team, so nothing would surprise me.   ;)
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cloud9

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Re: LAX
« Reply #107 on: September 17, 2011, 08:08:35 pm »
Umberto,

all your decisions is your case! of course you lost with your decision FS9 customers (many of them don't change because they have bought very much for FS9).

it's all ok!

but:

* why are you not responsing to O. Pabst's requests stated one year or more up to now to make LAX (cloud9) compatible for AES?

* how should FS9 users now use the given credit for LSZH to buy another upcoming product if they own all products from FSDT?

what should we think of it?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 08:10:47 pm by cloud9 »
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SirIsaac726

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Re: LAX
« Reply #108 on: September 17, 2011, 08:32:33 pm »
At this point, it wouldn't make economic sense to can the develop. ;)

We're talking about the company that canned their ACES team, so nothing would surprise me.   ;)

They canned ACES after FSX was considered a massive flop.  Made sense to me...they developed, at the time, a poor game/simulator.  Now, it does fine since technology has gone down in price and up in quality.  They didn't can them in the middle of development and at this point in development for Flight, it just wouldn't make sense.  It would make more sense to continue with what they have and try and get as much return as possible.

global express

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Re: LAX
« Reply #109 on: September 17, 2011, 08:45:52 pm »
The amount of posts in support of FS9 both in these forums and on many other websites clearly show that there is still a large market for FS9.  ???


virtuali

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Re: LAX
« Reply #110 on: September 17, 2011, 08:54:28 pm »
* why are you not responsing to O. Pabst's requests stated one year or more up to now to make LAX (cloud9) compatible for AES?

That we are not responding to Oliver, it's just not true. We had a discussion about this (about 3 years ago) with him, but the end result was that we really can't put any additional work on the Cloud9 KLAX anymore, because the scenery wasn't made to support AES to begin with.

Quote
how should FS9 users now use the given credit for LSZH to buy another upcoming product if they own all products from FSDT?

Nobody said we'll never do any more FS9 product, we released two airports (Maui and Kona) for FS9 as recently as July.

Even if we can't convert KLAX, we might still have other products for FS9 and, if we fail to deliver them before the end of the year, we could always extend the Coupon deadline.

In any case, there IS a cost associated to staying with FS9, but most of it, according to many FS9 users explanations (since the performance argument is now moot), the main reason for not switching to FSX is because of too much money invested with addons whose developers don't offer free upgrades to the FSX version. You should really complain to those developers about this.

We made our part: if you switch to FSX today, you will not have to spend a penny to use any of our products you already have.

virtuali

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Re: LAX
« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2011, 09:09:33 pm »
The amount of posts in support of FS9 both in these forums and on many other websites clearly show that there is still a large market for FS9.  ???

As I've said already, the availability of KLAX for FS9 doesn't have anything to do with our willingness to support FS9. It's funny how people fast forget that we released an FS9 product as recently as July (Hawaii 2).

Whether there will be a KLAX for FS9 or not, is purely related to technical matters due to how the scenery is made, and how it might look if stripped down of the FSX-only features, with the additional issue there's no way to compile it with the FS9 SDK right now, so we might need to write new ad-hoc tools for this, which might be or not commercially feasible.

The issue is, from the very early sales data we are getting, we simply can't see ANY negative impact of the fact we don't have an FS9 version. In fact, KLAX is headed to be our fastest selling scenery so far. So, cold hard data facts up to now (even if is still too early to tell), don't show any evidence that, by doing an FSX-only scenery, we are losing too many sales. I believe that PMDG just said the same, about the FSX-only NGX being their best selling product so far.

Don't forget that, by doing an 100% FSX-native scenery for FSX, we might lose FS9 sales, but we might also *gain* additional sales from FSX users, because they might see more value in a scenery designed specifically from FSX, compared to other offerings that looks FS9-ish.

This just to explain that, if we manage somehow to do a quick (read=almost automatic) conversion that might take a week or two at the most, we might still doing an FS9 version, because it WILL pay itself. But if it's a 4-months job because of the technical difficulty, we'll have to pass.

Frank Lindberg

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Re: LAX
« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2011, 09:37:56 pm »
So U are saying??? there is 50/50 chance of making LAX for fs9 or what? 
VA. Senior Captain Frank Lindberg
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virtuali

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Re: LAX
« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2011, 10:02:20 pm »
So U are saying??? there is 50/50 chance of making LAX for fs9 or what? 

We don't know yet, because no actual work has been done on this, we'll see in the next weeks.

Perhaps you would understand better if I explain what usually happens in the development process: whenever there were internal discussions within the team to do something in a certain way, we always factored in the FS9 porting implications so, if something that looked good for FSX but would make the scenery too difficult to port or looking bad in FS9, we usually scrapped it. This means, we always had to give FSX users some kind of compromise, since no scenery really took advantage of the sim. We always made a "spiced up FS9 scenery" rather than a true FSX scenery.

With KDFW, we went a little bit further, but not entirely, which means the port to FS9 was surprisingly easy and not bad to look at.

With KLAX, we removed any restraint we had, and simply did whatever we wanted to do, without caring at all about possible problems for FS9.

The easiest to understand example is the usage of 4096x4096 textures: we are NOT using them to get higher than normal resolution, we are using them for SPEED. The overall resolution is exactly the same as (for example) KDFW, but with 4096x4096 textures, we use 16X less of them, which is way more efficient, since every separate texture is at least one material, and every time the graphic engine has to *switch* materials, it drops performances so, the less materials you have, the better. Ideally, if all graphic card could support it, the fastest scenery could be a *single* huge texture, with everything in. This is very well known to mobile phone game developers that are accustomed to run with limited resources: they all do all textures belonging to the same game in a single, large texture, otherwise called "Atlas"

Unfortunately, having designed the scenery for 4096x4096 textures, which FS9 doesn't support in any way, would present us with the following dilemma: just scale the FSX textures to 1024x1024, resulting in a 4X more blurred scenery OR manually remapping everything to conform to many 1024x1024 textures instead of few 4096x4096, which is a very long work.

This was just the more obvious example, but there are many others, like the fact the materials were designed to look good when associated with detail textures (which FS9 doesn't support) and not just plain detail textures, we used bump maps on the *detail* textures, which is something that can't be even simulated in FS9. Another example is the fact we used some very tricky shaders in FSX to allow for multiple layers and areas of customized detail textures, which are more complex than the already tricky ones we used in KDFW, and they port badly to FS9 too.

Last but not least, there's the issue of the polygonal complexity of the scenery, which makes the FS9 SDK going bonkers trying to compile it (we don't have any idea if FS9 would then be able to *run* it, provided we ever manage to compile it in the first place...), manually splitting the scenery to please the FS9 compiler is out of the question, the only way would be writing some new tool that does it automatically, but as I've said, I've no idea how difficult would be, because no work on it has been done right now.

DChockey08

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Re: LAX
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2011, 10:09:40 pm »
Thanks Umberto, we'll keep our fingers crossed!  :)

kinm

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Re: LAX
« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2011, 10:36:16 pm »

After few weeks or whatever.... and you think that there is no other way to produce LAX on FS9.
I just hope you continue to create FS9 sceneries along with FSX.
You've done US and couple of European sceneries, i think it's fair for the Asian FS community to see some Asian sceneries created by FSDreamteam.
We need a good FS9/FSX Narita, Kansai, Beijing or maybe Ninoy Aquino.


Thanks,
Kin M.
(Klax)


masondom

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Re: LAX
« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2011, 11:44:38 pm »
Yes please, change the topic. This FS9vsFSX eternal dispute is kiling us. I am exhausted.
 :'(  iFLY NG, PMDG NGX, Anchorage, Corfu, KLAX... we are living one the most fabulous year
for FSX.
FS9 has now the most formidable scenery library ever.
FS9 and FSX sales are almost growing at the same rate. COME ON !
 

BillS511

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Re: LAX
« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2011, 08:31:20 am »
Quote
That's like yelling at the music industry for not making 8-track tapes

8 track tapes? I remember those. Heck, I still buy LP's! And manufacturers are still producing turntables.

Just my 2ยข worth; but after thousands of $'s invested (and still so) in this wonderful hobby,(simming since the days of Sublogic), I have finally settled with FS9. I get great performance on a computer that is over six years old that have had several hardware upgrades; video cards and hard drives. One drive is dedicated just for the over 100GB space the sim occupies. And I dread the day something happens and I have to spends days if not weeks to reinstall everything to get it back to the current setup. It's just a PITA.

I tried the FSX demo and it just didn't convince me to switch. Performance wise it was fine, but the WX, and namely the textures just didn't come close to the addons I have in FS9, IMO.

I for one appreciate FSDT and other developers for supporting the FS9 community for as long as they have.

As the saying goes, If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Bill

Bruce Hamilton

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Re: LAX
« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2011, 02:01:59 pm »
FS9 may not be broke, but there comes a time whenit stops being supported.  Microsoft stopped selling Windows XP and eventually automatic updates will cease, likely forcing me to switch to Windows 7 or possibly 8 by that time.  All good things must end, and eventually even FSX will be gone.
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flusispieler

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Re: LAX
« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2011, 02:14:25 pm »
Well, I usually never use FSX, but I wanted to give it a try, so I downloaded the Trial and loaded LAX up with the QW 757. I am getting 20 FPS there. Not that bad. It's the scenery with least imapact on FPS I've ever seen. Every scenery I own gives me about 8-10 FPS. FS9 still gives me 20-60 FPS, depending on situation, but if every scenery would run like this I would switch to FSX

Great work, Umberto and everyone else who worked on this :)

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