Sludge/Combat Hornet Integrator - Released

[jimi08]

I talked to a Hornet driver (Charlies) in my curriculum today and he said that they usually worked it out to where they usually approached the deck right under max trap and that they usually looked at approaching the ship in the low 140s.  If you have any more specific questions, let me know and I will ask him.

[neutrino]

Thanks Jimi, that explains the approach speeds. It's good to know how the real pilots do it

I talked to a Hornet driver (Charlies) in my curriculum today and he said that they usually worked it out where they preferably approached the deck right under max trap and they would usually looked at approaching the ship in the low 140s.  If you have any more specific questions, let me know and I will ask him.

[SpazSinbad]

neutrino, as has been hinted at all along (sadly I have never been a Hornet pilot so I can only guess) but having been an A4G Skyhawk pilot the suggestion is that any carrier pilot is constantly working out how to get back to the carrier with the maximum amount of fuel, just under the maximum arrested landing weight.

This gets to be second nature for reasons described in the dramatic low fuel barrier arrest situation. In any event a military jet pilot is constantly aware of their fuel state, always figuring out what the fuel will be at 'Charlie' time (programmed arrest time). One is never late for 'Charlie' without expecting a boot in the behind and one gets there with the maximum fuel.

In the case of the Hornet it has the capability to land with much more than just fuel and empty weapons pylons/carriers compared to the Skyhawk at Max Arrested Landing Weight. However the principle is the same. No one ever wins any points for running out of fuel in a miljet and a carrier pilot always wants to have the max fuel for any eventuality at the carrier before arrested landing.

Our A4Gs had a kneeboard card with every expendable or not item weight recorded. We all agreed on the empty weight (which can vary quite a bit but there are standards in NATOPS). Then the odd bits and pieces hanging off the aircraft were added - take that away from max arrested landing weight and the fuel for this event is known. Unsurprisingly the fuel burn during the first circuit could be added so that the aircraft weight crossing the ramp weight could be known but generally that fudge factor was not always used in case the mental arithmatic was off because sometimes some weapons might 'hang' (not fire) which otherwise might not be jettisoned by other means. And so it goes....

[Sludge]

JIMI...

Much thanks, and this confirms what I've been yapping about all along, that what's in those Hornet Y/T videos is commonplace, that they stay in the low 140s on approach.  As I've tried unsuccessfully to emulate in FSX til yesterday. Only after I shaved off a bit of lift from the flaps to get a MAX TRAP WEIGHT Delta Hornet close to 140. Another real-world vs. FSX factor is that we can only use UNRESTRICTED (33k) a/c weight, as one of the RESTRICTIONS (NATOPS) landing at 34k is a 3.5 glideslope.  Which we cannot have with any of the default Acceleration/AICarriers/Javier's Carriers 'cause they are coded for a 4.0 ball.

IF we could get the ball at 3.5, we could go up to 34k a/c weight, and that approach speed would be 141 (139 base speed + 2 for external stores) and it would be just like the video when he levels out, he is ON-SPEED at 141.  Now, its finally starting to make sense.

Thanks again, much appreciated for that real-world Hornet driver input.  If you dont mind, can you ask at what fuel state CATCC would send them to tank.  In my few times in CATCC watching flight ops, I thought they sent them to tank around 3k gas, but I've been mistaken before.

Later
Sludge

[jimi08]

OK Sludge, the answer I got from my colleague about your tanker question.  He said that it all depends on the commander/squadron directives and the distance of Blue Water (the carrier) and diverts.  As a rule of thumb, he said that it was usually 400 lbs above bingo during daytime hours and 800 lbs above bingo during nighttime operations.  Of course because the Legacy Hornet's stubby legs, it wasn't uncommon for them to be directed to hit the hose right after cleaning up.  Hope this helps.

-Jimi

[Sludge]

JIMI...

Always helps to have a person "in the know" giving us straight up answers from real world experience.  And that answer is what I expected as BINGO is usually 3k'. I know that the Hornets we've trained with in "earwax" have called JOKER around 4k and and Knock-It-Offs (for Bingo fuel) at 3k.  Also during my ship time, when I'd go over to CATCC, I remember them going to get about 2k gas when they'd get around 3k.  What I would have given to been a division officer on ship as we are doing this stuff.  I could just go to ready rooms or maint. depts and get MOST (not ALL) of the answers we are looking for...  or I could watch the PLAT (ship's TV channel 2) and get some more answers there.

Thanks again and see ya on the Skype side when I get online.

Later
Sludge

[Sludge]

Fellas...

Here's the current "skinny".  I have some updates but want everyone's opinion.

I have some "fixes" to v1.2 CHARLIE:
nose into the deck problem at trap (CenterofGravity for A/C and Fuel Tanks modded and updated UA (up and away) and PA (powered approach) auto-trim settings);
the "bucking" on wire trap problem (auto braking removed and above-mentioned CG fix); aircraft swerves right/left on cat-shot (braking speed "trick" removed);
get the low 140s on approach that Y/T videos show, cited NAVAIR document, and current Hornet driver supports (leading edge flaps (LEF) = auto (AoA driven) and the trailing edge flaps (TEF) = manual/FULL DEFLECTION AND decreasing FA-18.AIR flap lift slightly);

What I want to know is that who would like the brakes "trick" removed entirely?  I can make the Base.XML WITHOUT the brakes "trick" default, so that people who use a HOTAS button, trigger usually, (most flyers, I'm guessing), dont have to worry about UNLOCKING the brakes after landing or cat-shot.  Personally, I think it was a good, novel idea but practically, just doesnt work for most flyers.  Let me know what you think.
Also, would you rather I upload these new fixes in their entirety as a .ZIP file that contains the SHCHI.EXE along w/a new README and NEW FEATURE text files?  So you can simply delete the old v1.2 CHARLIE, use the auto-installer and you get all the new features? Manual install will be available as well.
OR would you rather I place them as UPDATE.ZIPs (here at FSDT and SH.com) to unzip, copy/paste into your current SludgeCombat v1.2 CHARLIEs?

I prefer the first method as it starts everyone from a clean slate with all the new mods, but I would like everyone's opinion.

Once we have come to a consensus on this, I'll re-release the v1.2 CHARLIE, and get to work on FLARES.  I have the base FLARE effect done but the smoke is proving a real pain the you-know-what.

Later
Sludge

[Johan]

Sludge,

Great news for the fixes, as you know, the break trick didn't work for me since I am one of the ones using the trigger on HOTAS to break, so I went back to the original base.xml.
For the delivery of the fixes, I am good either way. If the updates are minor in nature (a few lines to tweak on aircraft.cfg...), then the update.zip would be better for the ones with low download speed.
Thank you,

Johan

[Jymp]

Whichever way you'd like is fine to me, clean slate or an update.

[wilycoyote4]

"place them as UPDATE.ZIPs (here at FSDT and SH.com) to unzip, copy/paste into your current SludgeCombat v1.2 CHARLIEs?"

I'm for this and use a joystick trigger for brakes as I have no rudder pedals with toe brakes(at the moment, lol).

[Sludge]

Fellas...

OK, so far its looking like Ill just post an UPDATE.ZIP to everyone.  Keep in mind, it will be harder to help you IF you've put in other paints and whatnot but I'll work on getting the UPDATE.ZIP out.

And due to popular request, BOTH brakes "tricks" (cat-shot and traps) are out.  Like I said earlier, they were a good idea, just too hard to implement at this time for people who dont have Rudder Pedal toe brakes.  Sorry to those of you that do, just a clear majority dont have the toe brakes and its causing more problems than it solves.

Later
Sludge

[Sludge]

JIMI...

Im at work, but have a few questions to ask the Hornet driver when you get back to class.  What do they fly the pattern at?  150 or Yellow donut, whatever it higher?  Or at whatever speed to maintain interval?  Also, do they use rudder IN-THE-PATTERN or during the approach phase? Or both? Whats a common abeam length?

I think thats it for now.

Thanks
Sludge

[nicka117]

Looking forward to it Sludge! Thanks for all your hard work!

[jimi08]

JIMI...

Im at work, but have a few questions to ask the Hornet driver when you get back to class.  What do they fly the pattern at?  150 or Yellow donut, whatever it higher?  Or at whatever speed to maintain interval?  Also, do they use rudder IN-THE-PATTERN or during the approach phase? Or both? Whats a common abeam length?

Ok, this is the response I got:

1)      The pattern is always flown on-speed (yellow donut) with minor changes only used for interval correction.

2)      We never use rudder in the pattern.  The hornet is fly-by-wire and has an amazing flight control computer that we can only confuse if we use rudder.  The rudder in the hornet is used for tactical maneuvers or emergencies only.

3)      The Standard abeam length for a vintage hornet is 1.3-1.5 miles.

Hope this helps.

[Sludge]

JIMI...

As usual, you come thru IN SPADES.  This is EXACTLY what I was hoping for.

The pattern is always flown on-speed (yellow donut) with minor changes only used for interval correction.

I heard (forget who) that the pattern is flown at 150 or yellow donut, or whatever is higher. Guess thats incorrect.

We never use rudder in the pattern.  The hornet is fly-by-wire and has an amazing flight control computer that we can only confuse if we use rudder.  The rudder in the hornet is used for tactical maneuvers or emergencies only.

Makes sense in the whole scheme of things as I use rudder alot in the pattern and a TAD on final, but will change that immediately. And I use rudder in Pirouette, PitchBack (banked vertical pull back into adversary), and Low Yo-Yo maneuvers, so Ill keep that going.

The Standard abeam length for a vintage hornet is 1.3-1.5 miles.

I fly a VERY TIGHT pattern at 1.1, so I think with less AoB (angle of bank; 27-30 instead of 30+) and no rudder, it should work out to 1.3 or close.  With the only major discrepancy being a higher AGL at "the 90" (on-glide still high because 4.0 Meatball) and the ball-call.

Thanks again.

Later
Sludge