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Poll
Question: What scenery would you like to be developed by FSDT next ?  (Voting closed: September 09, 2010, 04:30:35 PM)
KLAX - Los Angeles Intl.* - 239 (27.3%)
KDEN - Denver Intl. - 61 (7%)
KIAH - Huston George Bush - 95 (10.9%)
KSEA - Seattle-Tacoma Intl. - 52 (5.9%)
KPHX - Phoenix Sky Harbor Intl. - 95 (10.9%)
CYYZ - Toronto Pearson Intl. - 107 (12.2%)
EDDF - Frankfurt Main - 33 (3.8%)
KPHL - Philadelphia Intl. - 57 (6.5%)
KMIA - Miami Intl. - 135 (15.4%)
Total Voters: 874

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Author Topic: POLL: Help us choose the next FSDT scenery!  (Read 38703 times)
Lindbergh72
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« Reply #255 on: September 16, 2010, 06:41:47 AM »

No, Aerosoft does the same. They make two versions for the same price. FS9 is still alive and kicking.

BTW in a flew years from now, we will properly see a new FS version from Aerosft or MS. So why start allover with FSX now?

There are still many folks out there how fly in FS9, believe me.
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VA. Captain Frank Rose (Denmark, EU)
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psykie
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« Reply #256 on: September 16, 2010, 08:15:30 AM »

I too agree with you Sir Isacc, its all about cost effectiveness, time, and comp tech.  Is it not?

Matthew
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Matthew
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windshear
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« Reply #257 on: September 16, 2010, 08:47:27 AM »

Hey here is another "useful" picture!

http://www.airliners.net/photo/American-Airlines/Boeing-737-823/1780248/L/

Pssst! Stop arguing over FSX and FS9... MS flight is also on the way so chill...  Cool
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Yours truly
Boaz Fraizer
Copenhagen, Denmark
cybermasterz
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« Reply #258 on: September 16, 2010, 09:38:29 AM »

well which scenery is really gonna build KLAX or KMIA ?  Embarrassed i am with KLAX
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Musjo
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« Reply #259 on: September 16, 2010, 11:50:44 AM »

Pssst! Stop arguing over FSX and FS9...

Why?? Cheesy
I think it's an interesting discussion...

Btw - very well put, SirIsaac! Totally agree with you...
Still - I think it would be sad if FSDT would give up, developing sceneries for FS9... but I understand their reasons if it comes to it.

... MS flight is also on the way so chill...  Cool

Anyone knows, what's the deal with the FS Flight? Is it a new simulator (e.g FSX/FS9 or X-Plane) or isn't it a simulator, as such, but more "arcade" like... hope you know what I mean! Wink


Cheers!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 11:54:34 AM by AndersFG » Logged

Best regards, Anders
PUP4ORD
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UA777


« Reply #260 on: September 16, 2010, 01:19:38 PM »

"FLIGHT" is very much indeed a simulator. The real question begins when will we see more previews and then the release date.? Roll Eyes
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KENNETH M."PUP"CRADDOCK II
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windshear
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« Reply #261 on: September 17, 2010, 07:34:37 AM »

Pssst! Stop arguing over FSX and FS9...

Why?? Cheesy
I think it's an interesting discussion...

Cheers!

Because it is not an interesting discussion, it's stupid.
The producer is rethinking their strategies because of the limitations that FS9 holds on their creativity.
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Yours truly
Boaz Fraizer
Copenhagen, Denmark
AA777-200ER
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« Reply #262 on: September 17, 2010, 03:24:03 PM »

I assume that FSDT is aware of the rebuilding of the International Terminal, will these changes be shown? Could you include the In n' Out Burgers and the spotter's park next to the north runway since it is an important landmark and is known by most people who fly to LAX.  Grin

Thanks again for you decision to recreate LAX for FSX...Darryl
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 03:26:43 PM by AA777-200ER » Logged
windshear
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« Reply #263 on: September 17, 2010, 05:08:43 PM »

I assume that FSDT is aware of the rebuilding of the International Terminal, will these changes be shown? Could you include the In n' Out Burgers and the spotter's park next to the north runway since it is an important landmark and is known by most people who fly to LAX.  Grin

Thanks again for you decision to recreate LAX for FSX...Darryl

Yay N' Out burger... That was a good idea!  Cheesy
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Yours truly
Boaz Fraizer
Copenhagen, Denmark
rakitic10
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« Reply #264 on: September 21, 2010, 11:42:40 AM »

I am really sorry but I want to say some words as well to the question whether it will be FS9 or not.

To my mind, FSDT as a payware scenery designer can be proud of the fact that it is one of the best (perhaps THE best) designer in the "world of sceneries". However, FSDT should ask itself why it is as successful as it is. It would be a slip in the face for all FS9 simmers who always were faithful to FSDT.
It is the same like PMDG's development to a single FSX-design studio. But they have a convincing reason, i.e. that over 80% of all sold articles in the last years went to FSX costumers. It is an economic reason so that it is quite normal that PMDG only concentrates on FSX products.
However in this case: if it is really ONLY connected with the fact that FSDT does not know whether the new textures will look great in FS9 or not, it will be no problem! I (as FS9 - simmer) am very very content with the perfomance of FSDT sceneries in FS9 so far (until today), why is it not possible to make KLAX with THESE textures and THIS perfomance and THIS quality??

I said it before, it would be a slip in the face for me and thousands of other faithful costumers of FSDT.
If I had known that before the POLL, I would not have taken part in this survey..

Very disappointed... Undecided Cry

Sincerely yours
N.E.

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virtuali
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« Reply #265 on: September 21, 2010, 12:55:28 PM »

However in this case: if it is really ONLY connected with the fact that FSDT does not know whether the new textures will look great in FS9 or not, it will be no problem! I (as FS9 - simmer) am very very content with the perfomance of FSDT sceneries in FS9 so far (until today), why is it not possible to make KLAX with THESE textures and THIS perfomance and THIS quality??

Already explained, I'll try to make it more clear because, apparently, it's not an easy issue to grasp:

- We are not planning to use 4096x4096 textures in FSX to increase the quality but, mainly, to increase FRAME RATE, because we are programming the same overall amount of data, but spread to 16 times less textures, which means 16 times less material state changes (that are expensive) and 16 times less drawcalls (also expensive).

Instead of having, let's say, 64 1024x1024 textures totalling about 64 MB in 64 materials, we might use only 4 4096x4096, totaling about the same 64 MB in total, but with only 4 materials. This WILL increase performances in FSX quite a bit.

- To use 4096x4096 textures, all objects/buildings should be modeled from scratch taking into account that BECAUSE it's not a plain resolution increase, it's a different texture/material arrangement, which affects the modeling itself and it makes for about 80% of the entire scenery work.

- FS9 doesn't support 4096x4096 textures. This is a fact and it's a limitation of its aging engine we have to accept.

- Until today (up to KDFW) we had to accept a loss of performance in FSX, because we used the "many 1024x1024 textures" approach, and all our sceneries were not performing as best as they could, because having to keep backward compatibility with FS9. At a certain point, we have to move away from this, because the majority of users, which are now using FSX, have the right to get a scenery as optimized as possible.

- Keeping the same actual resolution in FS9, would require a different modeling, to conform to the different arrangement of data that many 1024x1024 textures have compared to few 4096x4096. As I've said, this makes up for about 80% of all the modeling work, since it requires to manually remap every single object in the scenery.

- To make for an easy port to FS9, we should simply *reduce* the textures resolution 4x, which will allow to keep the same modeling, just at 1024x1024 res.

- Making a specific FS9 version and even selling it as a separate purchase, doesn't make any commercial sense today because, since FS9 users are now in the minority, in the same time it would take an FS9-specific version of KLAX, we could do another FSX scenery.

- We don't know much about MS Flight but, I guess its engine will support 4096x4096 textures as in FSX, since there's no modern video card that doesn't support it (it wasn't like this in 2003 when FS9 was released) so it makes sense to be prepared for it, and not being caught with outdated design methods that were a leftover from FS9, when the next sim will eventually hit the market.

There are SOUND technical issues why the FS9 version couldn't be done at the same resolution than the FSX one. There has to be a starting point when we really exploit FSX in full, and that time has finally come.

So, as it stands now, the most likely outcome is that there will be an FS9 version (unless we'll find it will look like crap, which I don't expect), but at a 4x reduced resolution. Note that, many FS9 users are accustomed to use our textures resizer anyway, which reduce the textures by 2x, and the general consensus is that you hardly see any difference. 4x might be more noticeable BUT, we are also using a new design style for the ground textures, that will rely MUCH less on photorealistic images, which means the textures should withstand compression and lower resolutions, without showing much visibile degradation so, we are confident the FS9 version might still look better than the Cloud9 version.

With the added benefit that, this extreme fps optimization we put in place because of FSX WILL apply to the FS9 version too (even more, because the texture memory used will be 1/16th) so, it might be the fastest big airport scenery for FS9 ever.

And, of course, since we'll have a Trial version, any FS9 user will be able to see it for itself the final result, and decide to buy or not KLAX.

BTW, this discussion is only the result of our openness, which starts with the developers backdoor and goes on with explaining techincal issues in detail. I'm quite sure that, if we simply released a reduced resolution KLAX in FS9, with textures carefully designed not to lose detail when resized (which is what we ARE doing anyway) without telling anyone, nobody would have noticed it, and would happily use it, wondering why it was so good on fps...
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 12:59:03 PM by virtuali » Logged

Umberto Colapicchioni
http://www.virtualisoftware.com
rakitic10
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« Reply #266 on: September 21, 2010, 01:26:00 PM »

it may be possible that FS9 Users are in minority. The attitude that this minority does not play a role or plays only a "minor" role contrary the majority is simply wrong from my point of view.
Quote
So, as it stands now, the most likely outcome is that there will be an FS9 version
thanks for that. I can ensure that you would not regret it Smiley

BTW: to my mind, the FSX is not really matured at the moment..

Thanks for your quick reply that makes me hope a bit Cheesy
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Silverbird
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« Reply #267 on: September 21, 2010, 01:58:17 PM »

Thanks for being open with us Umberto and for sharing your knowledge, other people wouldn't care. question about the 4096x4096 textures performance will definitely improve with this since there are less texture files for the video card to process  will this have a small effect on loading? its not a big deal once the scenery loads.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 05:30:52 PM by virtuali » Logged

Cesar

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Lindbergh72
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« Reply #268 on: September 21, 2010, 05:24:17 PM »

Is DFW also made in 4096x4096 textures ?
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VA. Captain Frank Rose (Denmark, EU)
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"United we stand and divided we fall"
My PC spec: MS Win7 64 bit SP1 - Intel Core i7-3820 CPU OC to 4.60 GHz 16 GB ram - Geforce 670 GTX OC 2GB
I fly: FSX
virtuali
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« Reply #269 on: September 21, 2010, 05:30:34 PM »

it may be possible that FS9 Users are in minority. The attitude that this minority does not play a role or plays only a "minor" role contrary the majority is simply wrong from my point of view.

The only thing wrong, is the attitude that a minority should weight more than its real numbers, for whatever reasons.

With BOTH sims, it's only the hard-core users that we can realistically reach, there's no difference between FSX hard core users vs FS9 hard core users and, we can't find any evidence that FS9 users on average spend more money on addons, thus being able to offset their smaller number.

And of course, nobody said the FS9 user do not play "any" role, otherwise we would have stopped developing for FS9 4 years ago. They have played a large role, which is constantly diminishing up to a point that NOW (and even more in the next 6 months), it has become less and less profitable to target them. Or, at least, impacting the way a scenery is *made*, because of FS9.

This is what is being discussed here. Not that we are "dropping" FS9 support, because we haven't yet, but the fact that we are going to stop crippling the FSX version, in order to be able to port it back to FS9 easily.

I've already made a comparison with the videogaming world:

Imagine a game released on the PS3 which is using lots of FullHD video, hires textures and hq audio, up to a point that it would *require* a Blu-ray because it wouldn't fit on DVD anymore.

If the same game would be released on the Xbox360 or the Wii, the developers wouldn't have any other choice than reducing the video/audio quality, to fit on a DVD what's was originally made for the Blu-ray, and it would be absurd if Xbox360/Wii users, instead of being happy of getting the game on their *lesser* platform anyway, would complain against the developers they shouldn't try to exploit the capabilities of the *better* platform, or remade the game from scratch, trying to fit their machine.

And note that here the situation is in reverse: while in the gaming world, the Xbox360/Wii users are *leading* the market compared to the PS3 (so they MIGHT have a point asking for a better treatment), on flightsim, users of the *less* capable platform are ALSO in the minority, yet they want a better treatment compared to those of the platform that is BOTH more perfoming AND is now leading the market as well.

It simply doesn't make any sense.
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Umberto Colapicchioni
http://www.virtualisoftware.com
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