Sludge Hornet Modifications

[Orion]

I'd fly if the max G is more like 75 .

(realism off, of course )

[SUBS17]

I'd fly if the max G is more like 75 .

(realism off, of course )

No max G I've pulled with the FSX Acceleration Hornet was 12G and that was vs the UFO in the UFO mission. I had to disable GLOC and some other features in order to keep pace with the UFO which moves very quick. I managed to complete the mission though.

LMAO this guy makes it look easy though when I did this mission it was from in the pit with trakir.

[SUBS17]

SUBS...

You ready to fight it out?  Will meet you on the multi whenever you want, you can take whatever you want and I'll take the Sludge.  I'll have FRAPS loaded up to my missile button, so I have to validate my kill calls in that manner.  What is a good max-G for you?  I'll start with 7.5 if you want?  And I have to call "guns, guns" or "fox 2 close" as my v/vector crosses your flight path?  For you, if you take the VRS, all you have to do is give me a screen shot with me "IN LAR" ("IN Lethal Attack Range", I think), meaning if you pull the trigger, its a guns kill.  We can take off from Nellis and use the Red Flag range, using a hard deck of 10k and blocks up to 30k?  Fair?  Also, do you know military rules for being "in the blocks" (blue air, 5-9s; red air, 0-4s)?

BTW, here is a real world example of how pilot's use gun camera footage to validate kill calls.  Hence the real world meaning of "camera's on, tape's on... fight's on."

Especially watch from 1:28 to 4:50, the guy gives one of the best dogfight HUD video breakdowns that Ive seen on the YouTube or the 'Net.  Actually, this whole video series (Red October) is great.  The only time Ive seen better is when I was a ABM student debriefing the ACMI at Tyndall AFB with F-15 students and their instructors... very humbling watching ACMI results.  No arguments, only valid or in-valid kill calls.

In case you can't tell, I'm just itchin' for a dogfight, been beatin' down people left and right on the multi... hell, I haven't had someone get on my six and stay there anything more than passing, except after I called "knock-it-off" and rolled in for a landing to get gas.  Its worse than the time that kid harrassed people over Edwards with his "better than everyone else" F-16.  He had no idea how to really dogfight in it, and was just getting on people's six and calling kills, so I kindly whupped up on him, and he quit by dropping his gear and getting in a landing config.

Can you tell, I'm ready?!  Haha...  Enjoy the pic, where I forced this annoying, harrassing kid down, and he logged off.
Anyway, let me know if you're up for it?

Later
Sludge

Hey Sludge as I said my FSX the frame rates are too low for a dogfight to be flown in MP especially if I'm using the VRS Superhornet because it uses alot of CPU power for the Flight model etc. But if you want a dogfight then feel free to get either F4AF or even LOMAC(1.02 and yes you can cobra) and we can do this the proper way. The reason being is that although fighter pilots have an excuse not to shoot the other guy in trainning for a virtual fighter pilot it has to be with weapons not screen shots.
Now issues with FSX
1 the FM is not realsitic even with tweaks so cheating is possible
2 weapons are not yet simulated so a sim that does have weapons is needed
3 there is no outside view permitted in dogfights

At the moment the SVN fleet is preparing for a war in the middle east theatre so I may be buisy in the next few weeks in mp although I will try to make time between hops for a few dogfights if you like. BTW F-16 CAT 1 is 9G and CAT 3 is 5.5. I did a trainning dogfight vs 2 SU27s today which I recorded and I'll try to post it on youtube sometime. 1st bandit was down within 2.30min and 2nd took 10min to nail.

[Razgriz]

I've done about 100Gs

[Sludge]

Raz...

Geez, only a hundred?  What did you do?  Have you worked on your dogfighting skillz?  Especially the "snap turn".

SUBS...

Why cant you turn everything down and do the "lite" versions of the DDIs?  Even on "max low" for FSX and the SB, you still dont get good frame rates?  We could fly out over the ocean from MCAS Miramar and have all that open airspace, no traffic, no clouds, NOTHING but two jets and open sky?

And Im not talking about a screenshot.  Well, for least not for me.  Ill use FRAPS to record my shots (5 sec window) which is just fine for shot validation.  I said YOU can use a screenshot, if you so choose, because I know the SH can lock up with its weapons systems and putting a locked gun pipper would be good enough for you to call a kill on me.  What's bad or unfair or unrealistic about that?

Also, with your "issues":
1.  The flight model is not that bad, and as I said, if we limit to 7.5 max-g on the HUD, how can I cheat?  I dont cheat, ever.
2.  So you cant mock-dogfight without weapons?  People do it all the time?
3.  Whats your point with "outside view"?  You need an outside view?  I dont use or need an outside view when I dogfight.  The only thing close I do, is that in multiplayer I use the padlock view, which isnt all that unrealistic.  Granted, IRL, a pilot cant see when an adversary is behind and low, but such are the LIMs of someone without TrackIR.

Were those SU-27s REAL people behind them or the typical computer AI?  If you took that long (2.5 min and 10 min, respectively) against AIs planes, against me you'll be toast, if I ever get that game.   Also, getting the game might be a while, as Ive scoured WallyWord, WorstBuy, and GameSpot and have yet to find a copy.  BTW, real dogfights (merge/post-merge) last about a minute AT MOST.  Please post your SU-27 kill video soon and post the link here, would love to see it.

Later
Sludge

[SUBS17]

Getting behind the bad guy was easy its the shooting part thats a little tricky yes they were AI but I've been up against plenty of people in gunzonly.(including real fighter pilots online) The rules that I stated are how its done and the reason being is that I've encountered cheating in the past with such sims and not only that FSX simply does not yet have the capability of reproducing a dogfight the same way that Lockon or F4AF does. BTW 1 vs 2 you would call that a long time for a dogfight well just remember that I'm up against aircraft that can out turn me. So 10mins 1 vs 2 seems fair enough.

Like I said just grab a copy of F4AF or Lockon and we'll go for a flight.

$7.90
http://cgi.ebay.com/FALCON-4-0-ALLIED-FORCE-PC-NEW-SEALED-BOX-GUARANTEED-/130388386503?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5bc0e2c7


$3.00 for Lockon
http://cgi.ebay.com/Lock-MODERN-AIR-COMBAT-sim-game-NEW-PC-98-XP-CD-ROM-/400140461991?cmd=ViewItem&hash=item5d2a3ae7a7

You'll be blown away by F4AF.

[SUBS17]

Heres my dogfight vs 2 SU27s in Lockon guns only. This is part 1 the 1st kill.

Dogfights are like fishing some you win and some you lose.
Yes I am a lousy shot thats why the 2nd kill took 8minutes. Also note this is with patch 1.02 which is before ED changed the G-Loc parameters where Stamina was added to the G-loc. I'll have to try this again with Flaming Cliffs 2.0 just to compare the differences between G-Loc and Flight model as the F-15s and SU27s also had FM tweaked.

[Sludge]

SUBS...

That was a decent video of a dogfight.   But seriously, that is some of the worst guns tracking I've ever seen.  Did you win against these so-called "real world fighter pilots"?  The only way I see that happening is if they used an integrated stick/throttle combo and were on a laptop.  Additionally, you criticize the FSX Hornet's flight model but that Lock-On Eagle flight model doesn't look great either.  Last time I checked, you can't just keep pulling "over-G" (Bitchin' Bob screaming at you through-out the fight), and get behind a guy to keep maneuvering for a guns kill that took you about 2 mins to get.  I mean how much airframe stress/damage would you do trying to fight with an Eagle like that.  Nor do you manage your energy state very well.  You just keep turning with no regards to cutoff angles or airspeed.

Also, I'll ask this just ONCE.  Drop the "cheating" insinuations.  I'm not some knucklehead who tweaks their jet (elevator_effectiveness_scalar=1.5 or more, thrust=20k+, etc.) just to win online dogfights.  I could care less about winning at any cost.  I'd rather lose a realistic dogfight than win one that's slanted in my favor due to cheating on my part.

BTW, I found a copy of F4AF... installed it, w/the 1.0.3 patch and couldn't get past the startup black screen.  I looked on the forums and nothing worked for that.  So that's a no-go til I get Lock-On.  I'll try the demo tonite and see if it works...  in the meantime, so why are you against a fight in FSX?  We can both take Sludge v1.1s, you can host the session "no cheats" and we can fight there?

UPDATE:  Last night, I played the Lock-On demo at high realism and it is NOT all that.  Yes, you can fire weapons and they have decent tracking/percentages, but the flight model is ridiculously arcade-like.  I cranked up the realism and did max-G, even over-G turns and got on the plane's six every time.  I may get the game anyway, but the FMs are not all that you say they are, SUBS.  No better or worse than FSX.
Additionally, went in the multi. last night and had an epiphany.  Got to mock-dogfight the new F-35 against the Sludge.  It was definately a good go around, as nobody got any "guns close" or "fox 2 close" calls, and we stayed in a turning fight the whole time.  Broke the hard deck of 10k, losing energy and called terminate.  He was only in my HUD for a few snapshot microseconds and then we would pass off one side or the other and we would re-engage the turning fight.  Of course, this guy "Razor" (VFA-122?) was saying something about being on my six, but thats really not the case.  I had the multiplayer padlock on my upper right hand all the time, and only saw him in my six when we would do a pass and I would then plug in burner/max-G pull and get him just above my canopy rim.  Which is the classic indication of a turning fight.  However, for an "experimental" FSX airplane, he was pretty jacked up on it, as far as CAPEs/LIMs... will probly buy it when I get paid.  Its only 15 bucks.

Later
Sludge

[Orion]

If you're worried about cheating, both take the Sludge Hornet 1.1, and try shared cockpit.  If there are any major differences in the FD parameters, FSX will throw you a message.  Exit shared cockpit, make sure you're both using the same aircraft (check the title) and off you go.

[Sludge]

Orion...

Great call.  I'm all up for that, but I'm guessing SUBS won't go for it, no matter what is said or offered.

Anyway, how do you like the F-35?  As you probly read, I had a mock dogfight with one last night and it was alot of fun.  It can definately turn the corner, but who knows what it will look like when actual specs come out when its rolled out from production lines.  Pilots will take them to Top Gun, Red Flag, USMC-WTI... then we will get the real scoop on the flight model and how it behaves in the merge.

Take care

Later
Sludge

[Orion]

Sludge: I quite like it.  Great plane to fly around with, brilliant VC, nice HUD (courtesy neutrino & Scott Printz ) and overall it's just a fun plane to fly.  I can't say whether it's very realistic or not, well, definitely not on the sound aspect, since they're just aliased to the default FA-18, but other than that, I can't really say.  Few minor gripes towards the technical side (of FS, not the accuracy of the model/simulation), but I'm sure they can all be resolved.  As I said, it's a fun plane to fly, and I highly recommend it, especially if you've liked Dino's T-45 or F-14.

[SUBS17]

SUBS...

That was a decent video of a dogfight.   But seriously, that is some of the worst guns tracking I've ever seen.  Did you win against these so-called "real world fighter pilots"?  The only way I see that happening is if they used an integrated stick/throttle combo and were on a laptop.  Additionally, you criticize the FSX Hornet's flight model but that Lock-On Eagle flight model doesn't look great either.  Last time I checked, you can't just keep pulling "over-G" (Bitchin' Bob screaming at you through-out the fight), and get behind a guy to keep maneuvering for a guns kill that took you about 2 mins to get.  I mean how much airframe stress/damage would you do trying to fight with an Eagle like that.  Nor do you manage your energy state very well.  You just keep turning with no regards to cutoff angles or airspeed.

Also, I'll ask this just ONCE.  Drop the "cheating" insinuations.  I'm not some knucklehead who tweaks their jet (elevator_effectiveness_scalar=1.5 or more, thrust=20k+, etc.) just to win online dogfights.  I could care less about winning at any cost.  I'd rather lose a realistic dogfight than win one that's slanted in my favor due to cheating on my part.

BTW, I found a copy of F4AF... installed it, w/the 1.0.3 patch and couldn't get past the startup black screen.  I looked on the forums and nothing worked for that.  So that's a no-go til I get Lock-On.  I'll try the demo tonite and see if it works...  in the meantime, so why are you against a fight in FSX?  We can both take Sludge v1.1s, you can host the session "no cheats" and we can fight there?

UPDATE:  Last night, I played the Lock-On demo at high realism and it is NOT all that.  Yes, you can fire weapons and they have decent tracking/percentages, but the flight model is ridiculously arcade-like.  I cranked up the realism and did max-G, even over-G turns and got on the plane's six every time.  I may get the game anyway, but the FMs are not all that you say they are, SUBS.  No better or worse than FSX.
Additionally, went in the multi. last night and had an epiphany.  Got to mock-dogfight the new F-35 against the Sludge.  It was definately a good go around, as nobody got any "guns close" or "fox 2 close" calls, and we stayed in a turning fight the whole time.  Broke the hard deck of 10k, losing energy and called terminate.  He was only in my HUD for a few snapshot microseconds and then we would pass off one side or the other and we would re-engage the turning fight.  Of course, this guy "Razor" (VFA-122?) was saying something about being on my six, but thats really not the case.  I had the multiplayer padlock on my upper right hand all the time, and only saw him in my six when we would do a pass and I would then plug in burner/max-G pull and get him just above my canopy rim.  Which is the classic indication of a turning fight.  However, for an "experimental" FSX airplane, he was pretty jacked up on it, as far as CAPEs/LIMs... will probly buy it when I get paid.  Its only 15 bucks.

Later
Sludge

Hey Sludge well it has been a while since the last time I did anything with Lockon which is why my shooting isn't that good. The whole point is to show though that in a sim with combat such as F4AF and LOMAC just because the guy is in your sights does not warant a kill in fact you may just damage him and he can still potentially nail you which has happened to me in the past. So its a combination of things that allows the bullets to hit the other guys aircraft otherwise its like shooting tenis balls on a tennis court with a slug gun while someones playing a game. And thats why this screenshot/gun cam stuff doesn't measure up. As I mentioned in its current state FSX is not ideal for this stuff as theres not yet the ability to employ realistic combat especially as far as dogfighting. Virtually the only aircraft with a realistic FM is the VRS Superhornet in this area. Even if you could with the VRS SH (eg Tacpack) I could not because of the low frame rate which is very difficult even for landings its a difficult task to accomplish. Its good that you have F4AF when you get that cranked up you'll be blown away its immensely better than FSX ever could be as far as combat goes. Even worse still if you should be keen to download Open Falcon as that features complexity beyond F4AF.

[PUP4ORD]

SUBS...

You ready to fight it out?  Will meet you on the multi whenever you want, you can take whatever you want and I'll take the Sludge.  I'll have FRAPS loaded up to my missile button, so I have to validate my kill calls in that manner.  What is a good max-G for you?  I'll start with 7.5 if you want?  And I have to call "guns, guns" or "fox 2 close" as my v/vector crosses your flight path?  For you, if you take the VRS, all you have to do is give me a screen shot with me "IN LAR" ("IN Lethal Attack Range", I think), meaning if you pull the trigger, its a guns kill.  We can take off from Nellis and use the Red Flag range, using a hard deck of 10k and blocks up to 30k?  Fair?  Also, do you know military rules for being "in the blocks" (blue air, 5-9s; red air, 0-4s)?

BTW, here is a real world example of how pilot's use gun camera footage to validate kill calls.  Hence the real world meaning of "camera's on, tape's on... fight's on."

Especially watch from 1:28 to 4:50, the guy gives one of the best dogfight HUD video breakdowns that Ive seen on the YouTube or the 'Net.  Actually, this whole video series (Red October) is great.  The only time Ive seen better is when I was a ABM student debriefing the ACMI at Tyndall AFB with F-15 students and their instructors... very humbling watching ACMI results.  No arguments, only valid or in-valid kill calls.

In case you can't tell, I'm just itchin' for a dogfight, been beatin' down people left and right on the multi... hell, I haven't had someone get on my six and stay there anything more than passing, except after I called "knock-it-off" and rolled in for a landing to get gas.  Its worse than the time that kid harrassed people over Edwards with his "better than everyone else" F-16.  He had no idea how to really dogfight in it, and was just getting on people's six and calling kills, so I kindly whupped up on him, and he quit by dropping his gear and getting in a landing config.

Can you tell, I'm ready?!  Haha...  Enjoy the pic, where I forced this annoying, harrassing kid down, and he logged off.
Anyway, let me know if you're up for it?

Later
Sludge

The 2nd half of the video showing the Mig 29 was a great insight of its capabilitys.

[Nike619]

Okay, Here is what Ive seen.

1st, Slude mod is great.

2nd. SUBS is using the OLDEST version of Lock on, 1.02 is from 5 years ago.

There was Flaming Cliffs 1.0, 1.1 and 1.12

There is now Flaming Cliffs 2.0 And are now on version 1.2.13

And it is compatible with the DCS series. So its realism is improved around 10 fold.

So if you guys wanted to truly dogfight.

Get Flaming Cliffs 2.0, Fly the most advanced aircraft in the game ( Su-25T, You can rip the wings off flying it wrong, pop the tires ect )

And its all based on physics, That my friends would be a true dogfight test.

/End Rant. Great Sludgemod Guys!

[Sludge]

Nike...

Thanks for the good words on the Sludge.  Several other people on FSX have told me they like it alot, so that's pretty satisfying and is a credit to alot of the people who made the mods, especially Serge, JR, and Ray Gagnon.

Actually, I want to dogfight on both programs.  I love dogfighting in FSX in the multi and/or anything else I can get my hands on, installed, up and running.  Definately will look for FC 2.0, and get that installed.  Why is the SU-25T Frogfoot the most advanced aircraft in the game?

Later
Sludge