Author Topic: Carrier Landings  (Read 75541 times)

deltaleader

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Carrier Landings
« on: January 09, 2008, 05:59:15 am »
Hi all...just stumbled across this board and notice some real good information. I am hoping someone can help me with Carrier Landings.  I posted this on simviation as well but not had much success- here is my post:

"Now that I have the acceleration add on pack installed.  I have noticed the flight characteristics are vastly different than some of the user designed planes like the KBT f18 and the f14 in the downloads area.  I rarely have been able to land the FSX-A F18 on the carrier during the carrier landing practice mission.  Previous planes I have had no problems what so ever landing.  Everytime I land, I catch the cable but plane always nose dives on the deck even though I just did a 3 point landing.  Anyone having the same problem with the F18 being over sensitive like this?  seems like the gear is to springy or something..."

Link to the whole thread:
http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1199226589

I was hoping for a better tutorial or more details to perfect the landings.  The thread above has other comments and things I have tried.  Any help would be greatly appreciated!  Thanks!
ex-Private Pilot, life long Flight Simmer...can't really tell you about my other hobbies...

vortex_25

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2008, 03:41:37 am »
Unfortunately, my first attempt at carrier landing in FSX:A went very badly.. they had to notify my next of kin.. lol..

Anyway, I too, would love a tutorial on the subject, but like you, have yet to find anything definitive.

There are tons of videos posted on YouTube, but most aren't narrated, so all you can do is observe and take away what you can from them.

I found this one particularly good:

micro

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2008, 09:57:45 am »
You are right, the gear is a little sensitive. However, you should still be able to trap sucessfully if you fly the proper glideslope and speed. It sounds like you're coming in fast. I'm not sure if you're using the term 3 point landing correctly or not. The term is derived from tail-dragger airplanes where a good landing came when you landed on all 3 tires at the same time. This does NOT hold true for tricycle gear aircraft like the F-18. You should be trapping on the deck in a nose-high attitude, landing on the main mounts first. So, if you are maintaining the ball's glideslope (it is fairly accurate) and landing on all three tires at the same time, you are fast and creating a lot more inertia. Since the gear is not designed to take that kind of initial hit, and it is a little "springy", you will get a good bounce out of it. If you have ever seen a real F-18 hit hard you know how "springy" the real gear is, too!

Now, there is no set speed for the approach as it will vary with weight. There is only a set angle of attack, represented by the indexer next to the hud. The indexer tells you what to do with your nose. If it points up, you are fast, and need to pitch up and adjust power to keep a center ball. If it points down, you need to pitch down. If you have an "orange donut" you are "on-speed" for your weight.

Being fairly proficient at getting aboard the ship here is the best tutorial I can give you:

The biggest mistake people make with landing on a carrier is using the pitch to control glideslope and power to control speed. This will only result in you landing in an incorrect aoa and speed. The proper technique is to use POWER to control glideslope and PITCH to control speed (or more accurately: AOA). What this means is that in a perfect world once you are set-up and start your approach, the stick should be relatively still with only small movements left and right to correct line-up (since you you should be trimmed "on-speed"). This is an ideal situation. In reality you will need to make SMALL adjustments to pitch as well. Power, on the other hand, should be moving CONSTANTLY. The throttle should not be in the same position for more that 2 seconds. This does not mean to go back and forth between idle and burner, it simply means that you should be constanly making adjustments. If you have ever heard a real Navy jet landing, you know how often power is being adjusted. According to this technique the proper situation remedies are:

Situation: High on glideslope
Remedy: Reduce power

Stiuation: Low on Glideslope
Remedy: Increase power

Situation: Fast (low aoa)
Remedy: Increase pitch

Situation: Slow (high aoa)
Remedy: Decrease pitch

It's imprtant to note here that this is a VERY simplistic view. In reality, every control input has a primary and seconday effect. If, for example, on approach you decrease pitch, the primay effect will be an increase in speed and a reduction in aoa. However, a secondary effect will be a slight increse in rate of decent. By the same token, if you get high and make the proper correction of reducing power, the primary effect will be a noticable increase in rate of decent, while the less noticable secondary effect will be a slight decrease in speed and increase of aoa. The point is to remember that all of your inputs are intertwined, but, primarily we use power for glideslope and pitch for aoa. That said, let's talk about the appraoch.

Get set up about 5 miles behind the boat at 1000 ft. Slow to 150kts while dropping the gear, flaps and hook. If you need to use your speedbrake make sure it is retracted by 3 miles so you can fly a stablized approach. While setting up for the approach you should be in the virtual cockpit so that you can see the aoa indexer. Continue to fly toward the boat level at 1000 ft.

At about 3 miles reduce power slightly and slowly pitch up to maintain altitude while watching the indexer. As you get an "orange donut", hold your pitch and increase power to maintain altitude. This is where the throttle hand will start to get it's work-out and is also the point where power will control altitude/glideslope and pitch will control speed/aoa. As you do this, note the speed that gets you that "orange donut" (for this discussion we'll say that its 126kts) and trim the airplane. Remember, once an airplane is trimmed for a certain speed, it will maintain that speed as long configuration is not changed. So, if you are trimmed for 126kts and add power you will simply climb at 126kts, and if you reduce power you will decend at 126kts. Keep making power adjustments to hold altitude (for this discussion we'll say that the throttle is moving between 50-55% of its range to hold altitude).

At this point you will start to be able to see the ball which will be low and probably flashing the wave-off lights. Your scan at this point is: ball, line-up, aoa. As you approach 1 mile the ball will begin to come up to its center position. Now, this is important if you want to get aboard and holds even more true in real life: once on glideslope NEVER ALLOW THE BALL TO GO LOW. If it does go low add power to get it above center immediately. Then you can ease it back down to center. A bolter, while embarresing, is a lot better than a ramp strike.

Just as the ball centers, reduce power slightly to start down (now we'll say the throttle is moving between 45-50% of its range to hold glideslope). Keep the scan of ball, line-up, aoa. Once on glideslope, make any final pitch adustments to keep an orange donut and again note the speed. It should be the same speed as when you were level, so you should already be trimmed for it and it should still be 126kts.

At 3/4 mile switch to the 2D cockpit (HUD only). In real life, you simply use the indexer for speed and nothing else. However, in Flight Simulator, the only way to see the indexer is in the virtual cockpit which limits and obstructs your outside view. This is why you note the speed which gets you a donut. Speed now replaces aoa in the scan and your scan becomes: ball, line-up, speed. If the speed goes to 125 reduce pitch slightly to get it back to 126. If the speed goes to 127, increase pitch slightly. If the ball goes high, reduce power slightly, and then once you are back on glideslope increase power again. As stated before, if you get low add power now and get back above glideslope. Then ease it back down onto glideslope.

As you get in close, about 1/4 mile, you are trimmed on-speed so no further pitch adjustments should be needed. Your scan now becomes: ball, line-up.

As you cross the ramp, your line-up should be good (if you you have held it), and no further line-up corrections should be needed. The only thing you are looking at now is the ball. Fly it all the way to touchdown and you should trap a 3-wire. Another huge mistake people make is the desire to see the wires at touchdown. Remember that the hook is 50ft behind you and it should touchdown right in the middle of the wires to catch the 3rd. To do this the wires should disappear beneath you before you touchdown. Any pilot will want as much runway in front of them as possible when they land, but you have to get rid of that desire if you're trapping on a ship.

I've found that with the hud view in 1.0 zoom the ball will disappear to the left just before touchdown. Try zooming out to .70 of the hud view and you should be able see it all the way down.

Another habit people have is the tendancy to flare at touchdown. DON'T. What will happen is the hook will snag a wire while you are pitching up and the force of the trap will slam the nose wheel down. Similarly, people tend to cut power as they cross the ramp. Once again, don't. Your rate of decent will increase rapidly and you'll slam onto the ship. Keep making power adjustments all the way to touchdown, then when you do hit, go to military power. The primary goal in a carrier approach is to keep the airplane at the exact same speed and attitude all the way to touchdown.

As this is a simulator it is not perfect and you may still get a bounce out of the nose gear even if you flew a good appraoch. But hey, as long as you get aboard with all the big pieces still attached, you in good shape!

Hope this helps and if you have any other questions let me know.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 12:39:42 pm by microbrewst »

deltaleader

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 10:26:47 pm »
Thank you microbrewst!

Although I have a good knowledge of flight dynamics being a former private pilot, I have learned a few things in your guide that I think will help!  I believe my biggest problem based on this information is holding my AoA just right all the way to touchdown.  Although I am not flaring, I think I just have to much pitch hence the slamming of the nose gear in to the deck.  I am going to continue to work on this...I will be sure to ping you if I have any more questions. This is great stuff!  Thank you for taking the time to post this!

-Delta
ex-Private Pilot, life long Flight Simmer...can't really tell you about my other hobbies...

fael097

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 08:56:33 am »
i can't even maintain the suggested speed.... what should i do? lol

Intrepid

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2008, 04:03:51 pm »
Microbrewst; Thats quite the lesson  8),Thanks
I have been able to land ,just not very pretty
now I can work on perfecting it , to look a little
more professional  ;)
Randy

Scoutdriver

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 07:40:47 pm »
I agree with the others. Mircro, that is a great guide you posted.

deltaleader

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2008, 01:23:47 am »
Ok. I have been going at this like mad...this section doesnt seem to add up for me:

"At about 3 miles reduce power slightly and slowly pitch up to maintain altitude while watching the indexer. As you get an "orange donut", hold your pitch and increase power to maintain altitude. This is where the throttle hand will start to get it's work-out and is also the point where power will control altitude/glideslope and pitch will control speed/aoa. As you do this, note the speed that gets you that "orange donut" (for this discussion we'll say that its 126kts) and trim the airplane. Remember, once an airplane is trimmed for a certain speed, it will maintain that speed as long configuration is not changed. So, if you are trimmed for 126kts and add power you will simply climb at 126kts, and if you reduce power you will decend at 126kts. Keep making power adjustments to hold altitude (for this discussion we'll say that the throttle is moving between 50-55% of its range to hold altitude)."

IF I maintain the orange donut at 126kts...my descent rate is well over 900 ft/m.  50-55% throttle puts me at roughly 170 kts.  Has anyone got this work based on this guide? I am just perplexed with this F18 trying to land on the carrier.  I have been able to land so many other planes with out problem not sure why this one just doesnt even work for me. ???
ex-Private Pilot, life long Flight Simmer...can't really tell you about my other hobbies...

micro

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2008, 02:06:30 am »
Those numbers I stated are merely examples. As I said before, the speed which gets you a donut will vary with weight. It may be 130kts, it may be 119kts, it may be anything. Your task is to find out what it is and hold it. As far as your decent rate, you are under-powered. If you have a donut, you can do anything you want with your vertical speed. All it takes is power.

Next time you are in FS try this example. Get configured for an approach (gear, flaps, hook). Get a donut in the virtual cockpit in the same way that you always do. Now, go to military power and pitch up to hold that donut. What will happen is that you will climb like crazy. Then, pull the power to idle and pitch down to hold the donut. You will fall out of the sky. The point is: use that power.

Also, the throttle positions I stated were just for the sake of discussion. What I was trying to show you was that IF you were using 50-55% of throttle range to hold altitude that you will need to reduce power to hold a 3 degree glideslope.

As far as why this plane is so tough to fly, it's because it is the most realistic simulation of carrier ops that I have ever seen outside of military training facilities.

So to clarify: there are no set numbers for the approach. Getting aboard a ship is truly an art and will be different every time.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 02:10:37 am by microbrewst »

crim3

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2008, 10:30:55 am »
IF I maintain the orange donut at 126kts...my descent rate is well over 900 ft/m.  50-55% throttle puts me at roughly 170 kts.  Has anyone got this work based on this guide? I am just perplexed with this F18 trying to land on the carrier.  I have been able to land so many other planes with out problem not sure why this one just doesnt even work for me. ???
If your plane is well trimmed when you are flying at around 126kts, at 170kts you should be doing a lot of forward stick, hence the raise in speed. You don't let speed reduce again.
When you add throttle to a plane, the first thing that happen is, of course, a rise in speed. This increment will rise the nose. The nose up will make you go up (or down at less vertical speed if you were in a descent) and will reduce speed. Less speed will make the nose go down, then speed rises and the cycle begins again. After some oscillations you should end up at the same speed you had before touching the throttle setting, but with a different rate of climb. The inverse happens when you reduce power.

When you change your altitude through power adjustment (which is how it's done in any "boring" regular flight) the stick or yoke input is needed only to reduce or even eliminate those oscillations. If you keep the nose at the angle you now it will be more or less once the speed has stabilized again the nose dance can be avoided.

Forget the carrier and make a free fly. Stabilize the plane at certain altitude, speed and throttle setting (autopilot can do that for you, once you are in level flight, if you turn it off the plane is perfectly trimmed). Then do little throttle corrections and see what happens. On the other hand if you don't change throttle but change nose pitch (easiest way to do that is to change pitch trim instead of using the stick), you'll end up with a level flight at different speed.

With a powerful plane like the f-18, in the final approach, you have to do insanely little modifications in the throttle and anticipate a lot to keep it in the path. That's why it's so difficult. I find particularly difficult the amount of anticipation needed. You can't wait till the plane needs a correction, then it's too late. You have to do the correction earlier so it won't need any. :-/

Sorry if you already knew all this, I don't know you so I don't know your flying skills/knowledges. But it could be useful to others anyway. The first time a read about this so many years ago it changed the way of flying completely. It's again human intuition, so it's difficult to find it out by oneself.

SUBS17

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2008, 01:56:01 am »
Quote
At about 3 miles reduce power slightly and slowly pitch up to maintain altitude while watching the indexer. As you get an "orange donut", hold your pitch and increase power to maintain altitude. This is where the throttle hand will start to get it's work-out and is also the point where power will control altitude/glideslope and pitch will control speed/aoa. As you do this, note the speed that gets you that "orange donut" (for this discussion we'll say that its 126kts) and trim the airplane. Remember, once an airplane is trimmed for a certain speed, it will maintain that speed as long configuration is not changed. So, if you are trimmed for 126kts and add power you will simply climb at 126kts, and if you reduce power you will decend at 126kts. Keep making power adjustments to hold altitude (for this discussion we'll say that the throttle is moving between 50-55% of its range to hold altitude).

LMAO if you do that you will crash because at 126kts your AoA attack will be too high.(unless you're trying to land something that is not a Hornet? eg a Super hornet)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 04:23:59 am by SUBS17 »

SUBS17

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2008, 02:11:14 am »
i can't even maintain the suggested speed.... what should i do? lol

Speed varies according to weight of both fuel and load IRL in Acceleration we have a clean Hornet with only the fuel weight to worry about. IRL when they ask you call the ball you're supposed to give the LSO your weight. For acceleration its missing the AOA bracket in the HUD its a bracket that sits next to the FPM and so long as you keep the FPM inside the bracket your approach is the correct speed. I'm not sure if the F/A-18A has this but I'm quite sure the later versions have it. In FSX acceleration I've found that 140-150kts to be the best approach speed any faster and it tends to be too fast resulting in a crash. (IRL its 134kts )Slower than 140kts tends to give a high AoA which results in the tail hitting the deck.

micro

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2008, 03:59:41 pm »

LMAO if you do that you will crash because at 126kts your AoA attack will be too high.(unless you're trying to land something that is not a Hornet? eg a Super hornet)

First off, like I said before and I'll say again: Those numbers are EXAMPLES. However, you are still incorrect. At normal to light landing weights 126kts is more than enough. 140-150 is way too fast for the Acceleration loadout and I GUARANTEE you that you do NOT have a donut at that speed unless you are at maxtrap.

deltaleader

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2008, 09:45:25 pm »
i can't even maintain the suggested speed.... what should i do? lol

In FSX acceleration I've found that 140-150kts to be the best approach speed any faster and it tends to be too fast resulting in a crash. (IRL its 134kts )Slower than 140kts tends to give a high AoA which results in the tail hitting the deck.

That is exactly what I am finding out now.  I also learned that landing with nearly a full fuel payload is almost next to impossible...to keep the donut i need to have a fairly high airspeed. So I have been dumping my fuel to under 5000lbs and that seems to help me with my landings.  I still need to practice though but it is getting better thanks to the info in this thread.
ex-Private Pilot, life long Flight Simmer...can't really tell you about my other hobbies...

SUBS17

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2008, 01:05:27 am »

LMAO if you do that you will crash because at 126kts your AoA attack will be too high.(unless you're trying to land something that is not a Hornet? eg a Super hornet)

First off, like I said before and I'll say again: Those numbers are EXAMPLES. However, you are still incorrect. At normal to light landing weights 126kts is more than enough. 140-150 is way too fast for the Acceleration loadout and I GUARANTEE you that you do NOT have a donut at that speed unless you are at maxtrap.

Really I'm traping at 140-150kts no problem at 126kts the sink rate is too high as is the AoA so answer me this are you flying the Hornet in acceleration and are you really landing on the carrier or are you just making this up? Seriously the real Hornets trap at a higher speed than 126kts IRL.