Author Topic: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)  (Read 13161 times)

hopsten

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Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« on: January 25, 2010, 01:16:05 pm »
Honolulu is a real nice scenery. Are there no Approach lighting systems for the runways (daytime) or do i miss something after installing the scenery ?
I have only tried the demo mode so far. Maybe it is related to that ?
Keep up the good work.

Very best regards,

Joerg

virtuali

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2010, 02:04:19 pm »
No Flight sim runway, addon or default, has ever shown Approach lights at day, except when in IMC conditions, which in Flight sim means a visibility less than 5 nm.

PHNL is no different in this regard than any other scenery, since it uses standard runway and approach lights.

hopsten

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2010, 02:31:17 pm »
Hello Umberto,

sorry for misunderstandig. I just wanted to say that there is no 3d modelled approch light system for the runway, like for example in your Zurich scenery.
Are we missing something here ?

Best regards,

Joerg
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 02:34:22 pm by hopsten »

virtuali

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2010, 02:44:27 pm »
Ok, now I understand.

Yes, there are 3d runway models for runway lights. However, I see them only on the 2 main runways, 8R and 8L, but not on the 4R/L runways.

Maybe Fabrizio, the scenery designer, might answer better the question if this was done intentionally. Those 3d lights are quite fps intensive so, perhaps this is the reason why they are not on all rwys.

Bert Groner

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2010, 04:30:28 pm »
Hello to all!

Another thing concerning the Approach Lights Systems (ALS) at PHNL - seen with FS 2004 - with a kind inquiry to fix this:

  4L = four-bar-VASI active but not (!) modeled in 3D // no ALS = OK
22R = 3-box-six-lights VASI visible in 3D  - correct would be a four-light-VASI with two boxes // no ALS = OK

 4R = four-bar-VASI active but not (!) modeled in 3D // no (!) ALS (MALSR) in 3D
22L = no PAPI or VASI = OK // no ALS = OK

 8R = 3-bar-six-lights VASI visible in 3D = OK // no ALS = OK
26L = 3-bar-6-lights-VASI visible in 3D but switched off - correct four-bar-PAPI active but not (!) modeled in 3D // no ALS (MALSF) in 3D

  8L = 3-bar-6-lights-VASI visible in 3D but switched off - correct four-bar-PAPI active but not (!) modeled in 3D // no ALS (MALSR) in 3D
26R = 3-bar-six-lights VASI visible in 3D = OK // no ALS = OK

In fact I see no (!) ALS in 3D within the scenery. Maybe a file is gone lost while installation?

Thanks in advance!

Bert

P.S. All data retrieved from Airnav www.airnav.com

virtuali

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2010, 05:13:11 pm »
 4L = four-bar-VASI active but not (!) modeled in 3D // no ALS = OK

According to AIRNAV, 4L has 4-light PAPI on left, which is how the scenery is done. Yes, there's no modeled PAPI and no 3d modeled rwy lights. There are no approach lights either, which is correct.

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22R = 3-box-six-lights VASI visible in 3D  - correct would be a four-light-VASI with two boxes // no ALS = OK

Nope. What you see in the scenery is not a a 3-box VASI, the 3rd light you are seeing is the one of the other runway. It's IS a four-lights VASI with two boxes. In fact, the 3d modeling just confirm it.

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4R = four-bar-VASI active but not (!) modeled in 3D // no (!) ALS (MALSR) in 3D

Nope. According to AIRNAV, 4R has a 4-light PAPI on left, which is how is in the scenery. As above, we don't have the PAPI, rwy and approach lights modeled in 3D. The type ( MASLR ) is correct, though.

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22L = no PAPI or VASI = OK // no ALS = OK

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8R = 3-bar-six-lights VASI visible in 3D = OK // no ALS = OK

OK, agree on these two...

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26L = 3-bar-6-lights-VASI visible in 3D but switched off - correct four-bar-PAPI active but not (!) modeled in 3D // no ALS (MALSF) in 3D

Well, the switched off VASI modeled in 3d is perhaps redundant, but it was done on purpose, to give the impression of what's happened to the runway, that has switched from VASI to PAPI very recently so, we just pretend the VASI equipment hasn't been removed yet, but included the correct PAPI nevertheless as visual lights.

The main issue here is: we wanted to model that unusual tilted VASI (the VASI is not aligned with the runway, but it's 5 degrees off ), so we put the modeling in. BUT, real world has been updated to PAPI so, we decide to update the visible lights to the real world, but leave the modeling of the tilted VASI in, let's, for "historical" reasons, without lights, of course...

Yes, there are no approach lights in 3D here, but there are 3D runway edge lights.


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8L = 3-bar-6-lights-VASI visible in 3D but switched off - correct four-bar-PAPI active but not (!) modeled in 3D // no ALS (MALSR) in 3D

Same as above, everything we have is correct, we just don't have 3d PAPI and approach lights, we have rwy edge lights, though.

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26R = 3-bar-six-lights VASI visible in 3D = OK // no ALS = OK

OK

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In fact I see no (!) ALS in 3D within the scenery. Maybe a file is gone lost while installation?

As I've said, we modeled only *Runway* lights in 3D. Meaning, Rwy edge lights. At only at the two main runways 8L and 8R. We haven't made any *Approach* lights in 3D so, if you don't see them, that's how the scenery is made...

Which of course, it's always something we might take as suggestions for an update.

In any case, to sum it up, all vasi, papi, runway and approach lights in the scenery are correct according to AIRNAV data, but not everything is modeled in 3D.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 05:19:15 pm by virtuali »

Bert Groner

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 11:48:05 am »
Hello Umberto!

Thanks for your fast answer.

I mixed the VASI of 26R up with the one of 22L - sorry for that. My glasses seems not to be very good  ::)

But... I mean that it makes no sense to put in 3D-modeled VASIs where 3D-modeled PAPIs should be. Do you agree?

Have a look at 8L with correct placed PAPI but not correct set up VASI...



and 26L where the PAPI is correct, too, but not the additional (abnormally diagonal build up) VASI:



I recommend to delete the unused VASIs here and arrange the PAPIs with 3D-modeled boxes.

This should be made with the PAPIs of 4L and 4R as well which are not modeled in 3D as well.

Take care!

Bert


virtuali

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2010, 12:18:43 pm »
But... I mean that it makes no sense to put in 3D-modeled VASIs where 3D-modeled PAPIs should be. Do you agree?

I thought to have explained it: the airport has been changed *now*, up to the point that recent Jeppesens charts still list as using VASI! So, we decided to leave them in, but turned off, as if they were something that is still in the act of being replaced. We thought people understood it...

And, there's another issue: the place where the VASI was installed are still clearly visible in the photoreal texture so, we tought that, by not having them, people might have complained, even more, considering that slightly updated charts (only months old), are still listing PHNL as using VASI.


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Have a look at 8L with correct placed PAPI but not correct set up VASI...

What do you mean with "not correct" ? Have at Google Maps:

http://maps.google.it/?ie=UTF8&ll=21.307265,-157.943881&spn=0.002251,0.004128&t=h&z=19

The VASI in the scenery is placed EXACTLY like that, over the runway shoulders, and just before a runway sign

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and 26L where the PAPI is correct, too, but not the additional (abnormally diagonal build up) VASI:

Same as above: wouldn't be better checking the real world first, before saying something is not correct, or abnormal ?

http://maps.google.it/?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=21.306153,-157.914798&spn=0.003958,0.005085&z=18

I thought to have said this already, and it's also indicated in the maps (not the most current ones, because they indicates PAPI, of course) the VASI on the 26L IS CANTED 5 degress comparing to the runway!! It's a specific unusual PHNL situation, that we even thought to simulate with the actual lights as well. But the system was changed to PAPI, basically during developement of the scenery, so we left the 3d model in, disabled, and activated a PAPI instead, which is how it is now.

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I recommend to delete the unused VASIs here and arrange the PAPIs with 3D-modeled boxes.

That's exactly what I've said from the start: everything is placed and modeled CORRECTLY, there's are no errors whastoever, we just miss some items not being modeled in 3d
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 12:32:39 pm by virtuali »

Bert Groner

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2010, 12:50:28 pm »
Ok, lets make a compromise... Let the switched off VASIs in the scenery and put in 3D-PAPI-boxes as well!

Best for now!

Bert

virtuali

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2010, 01:23:45 pm »
Ok, lets make a compromise... Let the switched off VASIs in the scenery and put in 3D-PAPI-boxes as well!

Which was exactly what I've said initially: we can add the 3d papi, since the turned-off vasi is maybe redundant, but it was correct nevertheless, placed in the correct position, and made intentionally.

I just wanted to be sure you don't make the mistake of thinking it was a bug, especially the fact that the titled vasi, which is easy to think as a bug, when in fact is exactly like it is (or was ?) .

Bert Groner

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2010, 01:30:30 pm »
No problem, that was understood correct, Umberto!

It is a fact PAPI and (!) VASI together are looking kind of strange. But for sure you've had a reason to design them that way.

BTW: I've done some investigations and depending on this diagonal VASIs are very, very rare. So I had to mention this.

Take care!

Bert

P.S. Be sure that FSDT is doing good designer-jobs and is performing a veritable service including the reactions on peoples comments. So I'm keen to see the update(s) on PHNL.

virtuali

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2010, 01:44:41 pm »
Quote
It is a fact PAPI and (!) VASI together are looking kind of strange. But for sure you've had a reason to design them that way.

Google Maps is again your friend:

http://maps.google.it/?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=21.306153,-157.914798&spn=0.003958,0.005085&z=18

As you can see, both PAPI and VASI are installed, and the PAPI path crosses the VASI path. The only doubt we still have, is if the new PAPI is still installed like that, not aligned, or not. Airnav doesn't mention it.

BTW: I've done some investigations and depending on this diagonal VASIs are very, very rare. So I had to mention this.

And it's a pity they removed it, replacing with an ordinary PAPI, because it was surely something interesting to see, which is one of the reasons we decided to leave the model in.

Meaning, when we'll eventually update the scenery and remove it, we might just pretend to have experienced the "move", as the real scenery did because, it might well be that, while the PAPI was installed and tested, there might be a period when both were installed, which is confirmed by the satellite photo on Google Maps.

Bert Groner

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2010, 02:20:02 pm »
Airnav indeed mentions VASI and PAPI as I've learned right now. Have a look here

http://www.fsmagazin.de/PHNLChart.jpg

...a circled "P" means PAPI with four bulbs/boxes in one row as normal
...a circled "V" means VASI with two bulbs/boxes in two rows each - as normal
...a circled "V3" means VASI with two bulbs/boxes in three(!) rows as a special installation of VASI

The charts depicting the position - left/right of the runway - as well.

Best!

Bert

P.S. If you refer to Airnav's (at Navigraph I did'nt find PHNL - anyone else?) PHNL text on runways and their status you'll be save anyway:

http://airnav.com/airport/PHNL

It seems to be profen over the years that they are always on time!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 03:04:32 pm by virtuali »

virtuali

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Re: Approach Lighting Systems are missing for all runways (daytime)
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2010, 03:09:05 pm »
Quote
Airnav indeed mentions VASI and PAPI as I've learned right now. Have a look here

That chart shows basically the same information of the text page: 26L has only a P, as PAPI,  which is what we put in the scenery for 26L. The VASI is for the other side, 8R, which is V3, that is a special type, and it's how we have it in the scenery, both lights and 3d in this case. But I think that chart is just a diagram that only shows the current active system, as indicated in the database so, it's the same info as the text page.

That chart, however, doesn't say anything about the physical installation but, as clearly seen from the Google aerial photo, it's sure that both VASI and PAPI installation coexhisted, at least at the time when the photo was taken.


Quote
P.S. If you refer to Airnav's (at Navigraph I did'nt find PHNL - anyone else?) PHNL text on runways and their status you'll be save anyway:

http://airnav.com/airport/PHNL

It seems to be profen over the years that they are always on time!

That's exactly the page I'm referring to, when I'm saying there's only a PAPI now, which is how the scenery is made.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 03:17:17 pm by virtuali »