Author Topic: Scenery Popup and Add-On Manager  (Read 7718 times)

bojote

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Scenery Popup and Add-On Manager
« on: January 17, 2010, 06:51:16 am »
Hi,

I know about the option multiplier (1 to 20) and I've done some extensive testing of your sceneries for the past 9 months. I own an i7 OC @ 4.2, with very low latency memory running @ 1600Mhz.

my FSX performance is extraordinary, ALWAYS.. no matter what. Now, there is only ONE thing that bothers me a bit, and I've seen others posts about the same issue:

While raising the AntiPopUp value to 20 does inded fix the popups most of the time (very close to the runway), it does not fix it 'all' the time (because you still get them while on the early approach phase). So, my question is this: why do people with high performance machines suffer this problem while FlyTampa and ImagineSim sceneries (Boston & VHHH) do not seem to pause to load *ANY* kind of scenery objects? FSDT seems to 'pause' the entire sim for 1 second for loading objects.. it is the ONLY scenery package where this behavior is evident, no other scenery add-on (VHHH,KBOS), or PhotoReal scenery (MegaScenery) or City Sceneries (Manhattan X) do this!! and I can confirm it happens in: Cloud's 9 KMCO, and both in KORD and KJFK. all three use add-on manager.

Don't take this contructive critisism wrong. The quality of your sceneries its outstanding, but is it possible that you are doing some kind of 'access', variable check or operation that requires exclusive access to the FSX process or some .DLL that causes the sim to pause. Would you accept my help on 'testing' some kind of 'alternative' version of the sceneries I already own and do some testing to evaluate the option to completely eliminate this pauses?


Thanks,

virtuali

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Re: Scenery Popup and Add-On Manager
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2010, 12:09:00 pm »
So, my question is this: why do people with high performance machines suffer this problem while FlyTampa and ImagineSim sceneries (Boston & VHHH) do not seem to pause to load *ANY* kind of scenery objects? FSDT seems to 'pause' the entire sim for 1 second for loading objects.. .

Also, as I've already explained in another reply to you here:

http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=1653.msg13042#msg13042

No need to repeat all the explanation again but, it's always miseleading to compare different sceneries located in different areas. Remember that, before we released JFK, many people tought it would be impossible to have a full JFK running in FSX. If we had an Imagesim's JFK, it would be interesting to judge both fps and quality.

Also, comparison with photoreal sceneries shouldn't be done, because they are just too different from an airport.  Comparison with Manhattan X is also not very useful, because that scenery, as complex as it is, is spread over a larger area compared to an airport. The issue with airports, it's the extremely high object count in a very small area so, the chance of optimize using visual ranges and LOD is much smaller.

Note that, a scenery made with BGL only, usually has a visible range of about 10000 meters so, less than 6 nm. Meaning: the whole scenery will be loaded in memory at that distance. This means, an higher Antipopup value that will be able to duplicate this situation, should not make any difference, at least once the scenery has loaded. The value of 20 should be able to do this, because no objects usually have a default range less than 0.3 nm.

You might get a pause at 6 nm, perhaps even a longer one, compared to a BGL-only scenery, but then you shouldn't have any more pauses.

If, by saying "you still get them while on the early approach phase", you mean just about this distance, then I'm afraid there's nothing much more to do, at least with the current Addon Manager version, you have to live with the pause at 6 nm, which is not even related to system speed because, since we use Simconnect calls to draw objects, the speed is not so much dependend on the system, but is more bottlenecked by the efficency of the Simconnect client-server system. Meaning, the response time might depend more on how *many* other addons are making Simconnect calls at the same time, because in order to handle all of them without losing anything, there must be some kind of scheduling and priority system happening in the FSX Simconnect server and there IS a lag from the moment a command is issued and it's actually executed.

Note that we used a different method in XPOI, which has a quite complex scheduling mechanism on its own, because it's able to load hundreds of objects in the background, without ever slowing down the sim or pausing it.

So, I guess you might be tempted to ask why we don't used the same method with the Addon Manager, and the reply it's quite obvious: XPOI objects spans around the user in a very large area so, we can slowly pre-load them while flying, without disrupting the flight. Nobody will notice that an object that is 20 nm away has taken 20 seconds to appear. We also use some tricks in XPOI, like the POI title being loaded at a different (later) time than the object itself. And, of course, XPOI objects are all of the same size and take all the same amount of memory/textures so, it's very easy to precisely fine tune and optimize loadings, something that doesn't happen with an airport, were objects are dramatically different in dimensions and memory used and visibility requirements.

The XPOI method wouldn't work too well with an airport, that should load almost immediately. If we used the same approach as with XPOI, we might be able to get rid of pauses altogether, but the airport might take 15-20 seconds to appear entirely, because in order to get rid of pauses, we should load objects one by one on the background. This wouldn't be acceptable as well: imagine if you had to wait 20 seconds to have, let's say, the main terminal appearing...

I'm afraid there's no true solution to this: the use of the Addon Manager method of loading objects, allows us to get USABLE frame rate across a wide range of systems because, in exchange for pause, we get finer control on visual range, that allows us to create sceneries that wouldn't simply run otherwise OR we would be forced to compromise on modeling detail and/or texture quality, and the result is much better fps with the systems most user have.

bojote

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Re: Scenery Popup and Add-On Manager
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2010, 09:00:58 pm »
Umberto, as always, I really appreciate you taking the time for the explanation. There's one thing I've noticed that 'might' as well be some kind of bug
you haven't noticed.

The 'pauses' are COMPLETELY eliminated *IF* I depart from the airport! (I assume, it is because everything is loaded at once).
For example, I just departed KJFK like 30 minutes ago, on VATSIM, AntiPopup 20, overcast, rain, Manhattan X, your scenery, autogen Dense,
scenery dense and I get a constant 24-25 FPS. (Frames are locked at 25) not a single slow down! not once! and this behavior is consistent will all
add-on manager sceneries I use (KMCO and KORD), when DEPARTING the airport and if AntiPopup is set at 20 EVERYTHING will load at once when loading the
sim the first time. (it doesn't take 20 seconds, but more like 1 or 2 on my system)

Now, ARRIVING the airport its a completely different story... for example, are you familiar with the Canarsie approach? I guess so, well...
I do have like 3 or 4 half second pauses (very short) when doing this approach. The first pause is like 5 miles out, then I get one at 3nm, 2nm and a
last one shortly before the final turn. the pauses are VERY, VERY short, but all of them together will total about 2-3 seconds, which,
coincidentially is the 'same' ammount of time of the initial pause I get If I 'Load' a flight starting in KJFK. So, my question is very very specific:

As it is right now, starting a flight INSIDE KJFK with antipopup at 20, loads EVERTHING at once. Performance is amazing, no pauses of *ANY KIND*
If, I do the Canarsie Approach shorty after taking off from KJFK I don't get pauses!! Now, it seems to me, the add-on manager AntiPopup is based on some
kind of 'distance' LOD from the scenery objects. Am I correct? coming into the airport, does trigger this LOD mechanism based on the 'AntiPopUp' value and
the scenery object LOD setting (which is SPECIFIC, to the particular object).

Now, if I'm correct, then it is completely 'normal' to have this 'short pauses' during the approach phase because, every object LOD is different! so the
distance where it will load will be dependent on its particular LOD setting times the AntiPoup multiplier. What I'm suggesting is to 'test' what the effect
would be on having all scenery objects with a 'constant'LOD setting. For example... If antipopup where '0' and you will 'add' '6' to that result, then all
LOD for scenery objects will be '6' meaning they will all load at once 6nm out. Yes, I oversimplified the explanation just to make the point.

What I'm trying to do here, is help fellow simmers with very fast machines, I bet THEY are the only ones who will ever experience this, and,
as time passes more and more people will have i7 CPU's that will be perfectly able to handle having EVERYTHING loaded at once (in 2-3 seconds).

If you think this can be done, I'm willing to test any Add-On manager BETA to see if this is even possible.

Umberto, thanks again for your support and I'm sorry for being such a pain with this particular topic. A the end (long term) I'm pretty sure
it will be beneficial.

Jesus


virtuali

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Re: Scenery Popup and Add-On Manager
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2010, 02:38:11 am »
What I'm suggesting is to 'test' what the effect would be on having all scenery objects with a 'constant'LOD setting. For example... If antipopup where '0' and you will 'add' '6' to that result, then all LOD for scenery objects will be '6' meaning they will all load at once 6nm out. Yes, I oversimplified the explanation just to make the point.

That wouldn't change anything, compared to simply set the Antipoup to a very high value, like 20.

There's not just a per-object loading distance. There's also a per-scenery load distance so, if the scenery range is 8 nm, for example, and all object loading distances are multiplied by 20, any value of antipop x distance that result in a number bigger or equal than 8, will be loaded at 8 nm in any case. Since ranges less than 0.4 nm are not used very often ( but I'll need to check again for JFK ), most of the scenery is already loading at 8 nm, all at the same time, with anti-popup set to 20.

And, of course ( as usual ) things are not THAT simple because the Addon Manager is not the only thing that controls LOD. There's also the built-in FSX LOD, which is handled by FSX itself. Because, technically speaking, what the Addon Manager does shouldn't called "LOD" at all.

In fact, I'm calling "loading distance" because LOD is the display of different version at different complexity levels of the *same* object, depending on visual distance, and it's not handled at all by the Addon Manager: it's programmed in the objects themselves, and it's handled by FSX. What the Addon Manager does, instead, should be more correctly called "object culling", because is throwing away the *whole* object (including its own LODs), after a certain distance. This can be controlled by the Anti-pop.

So, there will be LOD at play, even if the Addon Manager didn't even manage the objects, but would simply load *everything*, regardless of the distance.

And yes, it's normal that objects are loaded faster when you start a flight there, without this being a bug.

When you start a flight, the REST of the scenery ( not our objects ) has been entirely loaded entirely during the "loading scenery" progress screen but, when you are arriving, the rest of the scenery IS loading while you are flying, and it's constantly loading in the background, taking disc activity for example so, during that time, the Addon Manager objects are created slower than normal because, when you start a flight, everything else is already and your whole system resources are all available to load the Addon Manager objects.

bojote

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Re: Scenery Popup and Add-On Manager
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2010, 04:43:23 am »
most of the scenery is already loading at 8 nm, all at the same time, with anti-popup set to 20.

Yes, I use an antipopup value of 20, under the assumption that *everything* loads at the same time (8nm out) however, it doesn't seem to be the case because loading of scenery objects appears to be staggered. Would it be too much trouble to ask to see if there is something in the KJFK scenery (object) with a value less than 0.4? I guess it is possible. Nor I'm demanding you to change it or even expect you to check it, but... I guess it doesn't hurt at least to ask ;)

Thanks Umberto,

virtuali

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Re: Scenery Popup and Add-On Manager
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2010, 02:39:43 pm »
Would it be too much trouble to ask to see if there is something in the KJFK scenery (object) with a value less than 0.4? I guess it is possible. Nor I'm demanding you to change it or even expect you to check it, but... I guess it doesn't hurt at least to ask ;)

Not a problem checking it...the smallest range used at JFK it's 0.35 nm, everything else is larger than that. However, the scenery range itself is 10 nm so, what should happen, with anti-pop up set at 20, you should have 2 main loading events: one at 10 nm for the biggest objects, and another one at 7 nm.

In fact, I might have noticed something that can be improved, which is of course only relevant with using anti pop-up at 20: all those 0.35 objects are now loading at 7 nm, which is more or less above KLGA so, maybe the system is still busy with KLGA objects so, it's not the best place to trigger another load. Maybe I can tweak it a bit, and have the main scenery range set about 6.5 nm so, everything will load at 6.5 nm, after passing KLGA, with no other loads triggered.

bojote

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Re: Scenery Popup and Add-On Manager
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2010, 04:49:43 pm »
sounds great!

I'll be glad to test any custom bgl or add-on manager version. No work today, i's MLK day in the US ;)