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Author Topic: Pushback Direction BEFORE Parking Brake Release  (Read 1548 times)
Terblanche
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2020, 02:31:31 PM »


Of course it is more realistic in the real world to advise the pushback crew before brakes are released. No doubt about this.

Maybe this could be made an option (before or after) to please every party here? But just for point 3 alone (pilot behavior) I would highly opt for making direction selection after brakes released the default.

Without sounding sarcastic or petty, but I really fail to see the 'problem' ...... I fly online a lot of time, and for me it is definitely better to know exactly what my intentions are before I release the parking brake. But I agree, it could be a personal preference and therefore, if possible maybe the GSX settings window could offer a choice. But for now I'm happy it is as it was before.

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Terblanche Jordaan
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2020, 02:32:42 PM »

Sorry, but I can not see any improvement here. Actually, this make things worse.

Quote
Maybe this could be made an option (before or after) to please every party here? But just for point 3 alone (pilot behavior) I would highly opt for making direction selection after brakes released the default.

Since Terblanche went to great extent ( as you have ) to explain why the direction should be asked BEFORE releasing brakes, it's clear we cannot possibly please everybody, and it should be an option.
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fsiment
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2020, 02:51:36 PM »

I see the same issue as J5Flyer in PMDG 737NGX after the update today. There is no request to release parking brakes. Pushback happens with parking brakes set and after completion, it is asking to set parking brakes when the brakes are still set resulting into pushback not being completed (i.e. tow truck is never disconnected).
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Wolkenschreck
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2020, 02:53:29 PM »

Making this an option (same as the good engine start) with after of before seems to be the best solution. Thank you for considering this, Umberto.

And Terblanche, no problem. I absolutely agree that this comes down to personal preferences and in the end everybody here is only trying to improve our sim experience.

Enjoy your weekend, gentlemen.
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Christoph
jalbino59
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2020, 12:14:38 AM »

Hello,

This is a good change, thanks for this.  It is a huge help to be able to have the tug connected and ready to go before requesting push & start from ATC, leaving the final selection of pushback position until clearance has been received but before having to release the parking brake.

I've loaded up the FS Labs A321 to test it quickly and unfortunately I encountered a problem while trying this new pushback method.  After selecting the pushback position, the ground crew begin pushing straight away, before asking you to 'release brakes', so they do it with the parking brake set.  If you release the parking brake anyway, you get the urgent message to release the parking brake immediately - so it is almost as if the detection for the parking brake is reversed temporarily while the pushback is taking place.  My steps to reproduce are below:

  • With the aircraft loaded up on stand, on the GSX menu press 5 - Prepare for push-back and departure.
  • With my selected options, I get asked "Do you want to request Pushback?"  Select 1 - Yes
  • You get the normal ground crew comms "Captain we are ready for Pushback" & "Locking Gear"
  • On the next menu when it appears, I selected 2 - QuickEdit Pushback, and proceeded to select my pushback location plus any required nodes, then press 'Y' to exit
  • "Commencing push" is played, and pushback starts without the "release parking brake" communication

Hope that helps (providing it is not a problem just on my end).





Experiencing the same.
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renkouchuan
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2020, 01:14:18 AM »

Got the same parking brakes issue after the latest update. I used a PMDG 777 and ran all the procedures as before. Unfortunately, after I set a quickedit position and pressed Y, the pushback started right away without asking parking brakes release. If I release it, I got the warning to set it immediately. The even worse thing is when I got the position, no matter the parking brake was set or not, I was always asked to set parking brakes so the pushback process never end. Hope to hear any suggestions to fix that.
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virtuali
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2020, 10:44:39 PM »

Unfortunately, after I set a quickedit position and pressed Y, the pushback started right away without asking parking brakes release.

Already discussed here, confirming it's a problem that happens only after exiting from having edited a QuickPushback, and it will be fixed soon. All other kind of pushback work normally.

http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,22866.msg153776.html#msg153776

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keithgiannoni
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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2020, 12:02:00 AM »

I would love the option please, if possible. It is personal preference as suggested. I fly only on line. It is not uncommon to anticipate a pushback direction only for the Controller to direct you to the other!! So for me, the choice of direction upon brake release is ideal.

Keith
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J5flyer
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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2020, 01:57:17 AM »

Hi,

Quote
I fly only on line. It is not uncommon to anticipate a pushback direction only for the Controller to direct you to the other!! So for me, the choice of direction upon brake release is ideal.

Just curious as to why you would want to release the parking brake (effectively starting your 'off blocks' time) before you have selected the direction/position of the push?  The way it is now after the change is far more realistic.

The way to do it is to tell GSX to prepare for push and start, let the tug connect and insert the pin as required, then ignor or close the menu that asks you for the pushback direction until you have received clearance from ATC.  Request push & start from ATC who will confirm the direction of the push, then you tell the ground crew where you are pushing to and release the brakes when they ask you a few seconds later.

With what you are suggesting, you want to release the brakes, then potentially sit there with the brakes released for anywhere up to a minute while you customise your quickedit push & start?  Doesn't quite make sense to me and would take the same amount of time except simply doing those two things in a different order, but maybe you have other reasons I am not aware of.

Just my input to hopefully help you with the flow.  The main point is that you do not need to tell GSX which way to push as soon as the menu pops up, which allows you to wait until you have got your clearance from ATC, then releasing the brakes is quite rightly the last thing to do.

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iforrage
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2020, 12:37:09 AM »

Hi,

Just curious as to why you would want to release the parking brake (effectively starting your 'off blocks' time) before you have selected the direction/position of the push?  The way it is now after the change is far more realistic.

The way to do it is to tell GSX to prepare for push and start, let the tug connect and insert the pin as required, then ignor or close the menu that asks you for the pushback direction until you have received clearance from ATC.  Request push & start from ATC who will confirm the direction of the push, then you tell the ground crew where you are pushing to and release the brakes when they ask you a few seconds later.

With what you are suggesting, you want to release the brakes, then potentially sit there with the brakes released for anywhere up to a minute while you customise your quickedit push & start?  Doesn't quite make sense to me and would take the same amount of time except simply doing those two things in a different order, but maybe you have other reasons I am not aware of.

Just my input to hopefully help you with the flow.  The main point is that you do not need to tell GSX which way to push as soon as the menu pops up, which allows you to wait until you have got your clearance from ATC, then releasing the brakes is quite rightly the last thing to do.



Well, there's no applause emoji, so I'll just say it's about time someone made sense!
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-Jesse
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2020, 11:25:54 AM »

Well, there's no applause emoji, so I'll just say it's about time someone made sense!

That's what I thought as well, and I'm happy another user was able to explain it better than I ever could, without sounding as if we didn't listen to users...
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Terblanche
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2020, 11:43:56 AM »

Hi,

Just curious as to why you would want to release the parking brake (effectively starting your 'off blocks' time) before you have selected the direction/position of the push?  The way it is now after the change is far more realistic.

The way to do it is to tell GSX to prepare for push and start, let the tug connect and insert the pin as required, then ignor or close the menu that asks you for the pushback direction until you have received clearance from ATC.  Request push & start from ATC who will confirm the direction of the push, then you tell the ground crew where you are pushing to and release the brakes when they ask you a few seconds later.



And that's all I was asking when I started this thread .......
... I'm happy it is back to the way it was and that Umberto listens to his users.


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Terblanche Jordaan
From: Cape Town (FACT)
Wolkenschreck
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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2020, 01:40:53 PM »

Is there any reason that some writers here need to proselytise so much?  Huh Again, there is no doubt that the direction selection before brake release is more realistic in a real world context. So, it is not necessary to explain this over and over again and there is seriously no need for any applause. I am totally capable to understand the flow.

What I am writing about is simply user preference. I gave a long explanation on page one of this thread.

To sum it up one more time, I do not want bothered with the GSX window unless I decide to do so. Having to close and open the window does simply bother me. The choice to select the direction after brake release was the least invasive way. For you, it is more realistic to communicate with an imagined ground crew (i.e., the GSX user interface) and this is also okay. It is simply a user preference.

My main concern however, and this is the same as keithgiannoni said, is online experience and pilot behavior. I simply saw far less wrong pushbacks after the "direction selection after brakes released"-method was introduced. Is this realistic? Of course not. Does it improve online flying? Yes, it certainly does.

And this is the only reason why I would like to see the After choice as the default selection.

I (and keithgiannoni in this case) do simply ask to have a choice. So, what is the problem for some of you that we could have two options to chose from? Please, just show a little bit of empathy and try do understand that this is just as question of user preference and good practice. And everybody who wish to do so can than simply select "before brakes release". Where does anybody in this scenario do lose something?

Just because some of you make a bit more snarky comments and show more attitude does not mean that my opinion as a customer is more wrong or right than yours.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 01:45:13 PM by Wolkenschreck » Logged

Christoph
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2020, 01:49:23 PM »

And everybody who wish to do so can than simply select "before brakes release". Where does anybody in this scenario do lose something?

Because it would add extra code, extra workload on our part which could be better spent to add other features and extra complexity that might *potentially* result in bugs later on. So, clearly, before adding an option, we must be sure it's useful to many users and, hopefully, those that request it, should provide some sensible motivation.

J5flyer explanation made perfect sense why it's best as it is now ( which I agree ), but I fail to see the logic of your explanation:

Quote
I do not want bothered with the GSX window unless I decide to do so. Having to close and open the window does simply bother me. The choice to select the direction after brake release was the least invasive way. For you, it is more realistic to communicate with an imagined ground crew (i.e., the GSX user interface) and this is also okay. It is simply a user preference.

I simply don't see how "less invasive" is presenting the pushback direction menu before or after releasing brakes.  Except that, asking after releasing brakes is never done in real life, since it could be dangerous to let the airplane free to move ( especially in slippery conditions ) while you are waiting to decide which way to go, that's why you should release brakes as the last thing you do.
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Wolkenschreck
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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2020, 02:20:53 PM »

I simply don't see how "less invasive" is presenting the pushback direction menu before or after releasing brakes.  Except that, asking after releasing brakes is never done in real life, since it could be dangerous to let the airplane free to move ( especially in slippery conditions ) while you are waiting to decide which way to go, that's why you should release brakes as the last thing you do.
Okay, this experience might be totally dependend from one's aircraft and I can understand your point. I mostly use the FSLabs and the only time I see the windows is after brakes release.

Quote

J5flyer explanation made perfect sense why it's best as it is now ( which I agree )

To be fair, users requested the latest possible point for a long time and most were happy the way it was since December. Having now a handful, very vocal, users requesting the opposite way does not mean that this represents the majority. And no, I (who is also very vocal) do also not represent any majority as I only express my preference. But Keith showed that I am not alone with my preference. You are better in marketing than I am but you surely know that satisfied customers are less likely to express their opinion than unhappy customers. Based on this I would guess that there are quite a few who also preferred the way I wish for as a choice.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 02:25:01 PM by Wolkenschreck » Logged

Christoph
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