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Author Topic: Marshaller marshalls perculiarly  (Read 1634 times)
virtuali
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2019, 10:55:53 AM »

If you take a look at any of the 30 videos I linked, you'll see that yes, everyone has their own style, but none of them do the incorrect action that GSX does.

Please stop repeating "incorrect", when it's clearly a matter of individual styles and regional habits. Just because you never seen something in one place, it doesn't mean it's not common in other places. We obviously based the animations on existing real world videos.


This guy, for example, does the "go ahead" in what I'm sure you'll call a "peculiar" or "incorrect" way, which is different than most do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRQ7oIu7IYo&t=210

But the "normal stop" and "stop" signals are basically IDENTICAL to what GSX's Brenda does now.


This guy, instead, does the "go ahead" i a TOTALLY different way!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBdWeKrbtJo&t=75s

So which one is right, and which one is the "incorrect" one ? They BOTH are perfectly fine to me and perfectly clear what they are signaling, since they are all compliant the CAP 637 standard, and that's the only thing that really matters.
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Pirateinparadise
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2019, 03:52:07 AM »

Well... After Brenda did it correctly several times, this guy pops up and the issue with the stop position reappeared.

He stopped me 4.8' from the stop position. Cry



* 2019-12-3_20-45-50-533.jpg (331.35 KB, 1920x1080 - viewed 53 times.)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 03:56:28 AM by Pirateinparadise » Logged

The drinking rum on the beach kind. Not the software stealing kind.
VHEBN
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2019, 03:56:57 AM »

Umberto, I don't know why it is so hard for you to fix this. The old marshaller was fine. Please at least just add it as an option.

Also, side note, where exactly in CAP637 does it say your method is acceptable? I only see reference to mine.


* Untitled.png (30.39 KB, 1130x418 - viewed 126 times.)
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virtuali
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2019, 01:41:19 PM »

Umberto, I don't know why it is so hard for you to fix this. The old marshaller was fine. Please at least just add it as an option.

As I've said, several times by now, there's nothing to fix. You said yourself, when confronted with a real video doing something different from you expected, that you never seen it before so, please, don't say something is wrong, just because you never happened to see it done in the places you have been.

And no, the old marshaller wasn't "fine", as noted by pirateinpiradise, when using the "old" marshaller.

Quote
Also, side note, where exactly in CAP637 does it say your method is acceptable? I only see reference to mine.

Which is why, I posted two videos of wildly different interpretations of the "go ahead" signal, used in real world, proving it's really a matter of personal style. What matters is the signal wouldn't be mistaken for something else, and the pilot would understand, in order to be able to recognize when to stop.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 01:42:52 PM by virtuali » Logged

virtuali
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2019, 01:44:57 PM »

Well... After Brenda did it correctly several times, this guy pops up and the issue with the stop position reappeared.

As indicated in the release notes:

Quote
Change: - GSX - Better Marshaller animation for "Brenda" Marshaller. Others will follow soon.

It takes some time to update animations with all the different variations, for the precise reason we DO have ( on purpose ) different individual styles, so nobody would think these guys are robots with the same animation and just a different skin.
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Pirateinparadise
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2019, 08:21:10 AM »

Oops! Bad pirate. I did not read the change logs.  Cheesy

Sorry about that. Thank you for the upgrades!
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The drinking rum on the beach kind. Not the software stealing kind.
VHEBN
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2019, 10:54:26 AM »

Which is why, I posted two videos of wildly different interpretations of the "go ahead" signal, used in real world, proving it's really a matter of personal style. What matters is the signal wouldn't be mistaken for something else, and the pilot would understand, in order to be able to recognize when to stop.

All of the videos I linked are far more similar to the diagram in CAP637 then what the GSX marshaller does. If it helps I made a short comparison video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ5VhaQmajI
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virtuali
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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2019, 12:20:03 PM »

All of the videos I linked are far more similar to the diagram in CAP637 then what the GSX marshaller does. If it helps I made a short comparison video.

The video I linked shows an entirely different style, which is even more different compared of some of the GSX marshallers ( you said "the GSX marshaller " as if there was only one. There are several, and each one is different, as in reality ), and that's a *real* one so please, stop saying GSX marshaller is "wrong" or "incorrect", when you said yourself you never seen some of things shows in linked videos.

So again, for the umpteen time, it's a matter of style and yes, in the next update, we'll add a new character "Emma", which will do the go ahead in a more "by the book" way, so maybe you'll understand we made all them different on purpose, to have them behaving like humans with different habits, and not robots with copy & pasted animations.
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VHEBN
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2019, 01:15:11 PM »

The video I linked shows an entirely different style, which is even more different compared of some of the GSX marshallers
No, it didn't. I'm not talking about "styles", I'm talking about the fact that the GSX marshaller does an entirely different gesture that supposedly means the same thing. I have never seen evidence of this being used for airliners, however, which is why I don't think it's appropriate for GSX.

There are several, and each one is different, as in reality ), and that's a *real* one so please, stop saying GSX marshaller is "wrong" or "incorrect", when you said yourself you never seen some of things shows in linked videos.
This is nonsense. After looking through all 9 models in \Addon Manager\Simobjects\PBR\FSDT_Marshaller\ they all have either the same animation or similar enough animations that I didn't see a difference.
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virtuali
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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2019, 04:53:55 PM »

No, it didn't. I'm not talking about "styles",

I am. And yes, it's a matter of different styles.

Quote
I'm talking about the fact that the GSX marshaller does an entirely different gesture that supposedly means the same thing. I have never seen evidence of this being used for airliners, however, which is why I don't think it's appropriate for GSX.

I already gave you the evidence: two real marshallers, both guiding airliners, doing the SAME thing using very different gestures. The first one is *extending* his arms SIDEWAYS, with the wands always being straight up at the same height:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRQ7oIu7IYo&t=210

This one, instead, is *rotating* arms up and down, with wands ending up behind his back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBdWeKrbtJo&t=75s

As I've said, TOTALLY different gestures to do the SAME signal. Are they both wrong ? Are they both right ?

Quote
]This is nonsense. After looking through all 9 models in \Addon Manager\Simobjects\PBR\FSDT_Marshaller\ they all have either the same animation or similar enough animations that I didn't see a difference.

They surely don't, they have very different animations. Obviously, the ones that comes in 4 different seasonal clothing variation, all share the same animation, so they count as one but, they different models are not the same, and the go ahead animation is usually the one that changes the most.

But again, the next Marshaller will have a more standard "go ahead" animation but, as I've said, so many times already, the whole point of marshalling is guiding to the right place, and not confuse you which signal is being done, regardless of the style.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 04:58:43 PM by virtuali » Logged

QFA1213
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2019, 05:42:37 AM »

I've been watching this thread for a while as I've been experiencing the same issues.

The videos linked do all show individual style, however, in respect to the straight ahead gesture, which is the focus on VHEBN's replies, all videos are similar to CAP 637 in that large movements perpendicular to the taxiline occurred. This greatly improves the signal's legibility from a distance.

The only video in which the current GSX straight gesture is replicated was at a GA FBO which obviously involves much smaller aircraft and closer distances (Maybe keep current style for small aircraft?)

The following two pictures show the current turn left (Which is similar to CAP 637 straight) and the straight ahead. The left gesture is significantly more legible.





Thanks
Brendan
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VHEBN
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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2019, 11:53:19 AM »

I am. And yes, it's a matter of different styles.
It's not a matter of "styles" I don't know why you keep bringing that up. The animation models wrong gesture given the circumstance where it's used.

Goto any airport that has aircraft bigger than a Dash 8 and tell me how many use the gesture that is modeled in GSX. Very few or none.

This thread has become ridiculous. I've pointed out an obvious issue in your program and first, you've claimed
Nothing is "broken"
Then it was
the CAP 637 standard
Which I'll come back to because you then tried to derail the thread by claiming
The functionality used to have a problem that made difficult differentiating between closing batons and crossing batons, which this thread was all about, and now it's way better, as confirmed by the other poster.
After I pointed out that the CAP 637 isn't even remotely modeled in GSX you claimed that
What matters is the signal wouldn't be mistaken for something else
Which doesn't make sense given that it's the wrong signal anyway...

Now you're trying to disregard my topic by claiming two marshallers doing the same gesture with different styles somehow justifies what GSX does?
I already gave you the evidence: two real marshallers, both guiding airliners, doing the SAME thing using very different gestures. The first one is *extending* his arms SIDEWAYS, with the wands always being straight up at the same height:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRQ7oIu7IYo&t=210

This one, instead, is *rotating* arms up and down, with wands ending up behind his back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBdWeKrbtJo&t=75s

As I've said, TOTALLY different gestures to do the SAME signal. Are they both wrong ? Are they both right ?

I really don't know how to reply to this anymore, maybe QFA1213 can convince you?

The funny thing is that prior to one of the updates, there was no issue, this only changed recently. It surely couldn't be that hard to just go back to the old animations, could it?
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cowings1588
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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2019, 11:44:07 PM »

Nothing is "broken" in the latest update.

There are several marshallers in GSX, and they don't do exactly the same gestures, and you got one of the ones that has a bit different gesture than the others. And even in real life then don't do the same gesture, somebody waves arms even behind his back, somebody else do it in front, and nobody is "wrong", they all have their style, just like in GSX.

The animation that crosses the batons is exactly synchronized to end to the 0 distance. And, when in doubt, always follow the *numbers*. To take into account your reaction time, we might tweak it a bit to anticipate that, but right now is perfectly in sync, that's why it might look more difficult than it should.

Umberto is right, everyone even in real life, has their own way of doing it.. I get mad at some of our guys cause they'll do it worse than what your having issues with and this real life were talking, they'll do like that one ramp your talking about but he does it stomach high and I'm like how is captain suppose to see that when your holding the X at your stomach height and he's sitting that high up..    So yea umberto right, everyone has definitley there own way of doing it.. Now when I marshall them in, I do it with the wands waving properly but I've also done it with them in front but clear enough and high enough so when I come too the stop X mark they are clearly visible for the pilot to see the cross stop sign. 
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COA
Bill
VHEBN
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2019, 02:27:07 AM »

but he does it stomach high and I'm like how is captain suppose to see that when your holding the X at your stomach height and he's sitting that high up...
Hahaha, we have a guy at work who does that too, not sure what exactly makes him think it's a good idea.

But I'm not debating that there are different styles because I know there are. The issue is that there are two valid gestures for this, however only one of them makes sense given the context. I'm struggling to get that point through to Umberto because he's so locked on people having their own style.
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virtuali
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2019, 10:10:00 AM »

It's not a matter of "styles" I don't know why you keep bringing that up. The animation models wrong gesture given the circumstance where it's used.

Yes, it is, no matter how many times you keep repeating it,

Quote
Goto any airport that has aircraft bigger than a Dash 8 and tell me how many use the gesture that is modeled in GSX. Very few or none.

The video I posted shows totally different styles on a A320 and a B747

Quote
Which doesn't make sense given that it's the wrong signal anyway...

It's NOT the wrong signal, stop saying that.

Quote
I really don't know how to reply to this anymore, maybe QFA1213 can convince you?

Of course you don't know how to reply, when those two videos are proving you wrong and making my point how wildly different styles real life marshaller can have.

Quote
The funny thing is that prior to one of the updates, there was no issue, this only changed recently. It surely couldn't be that hard to just go back to the old animations, could it?

You got it backwards. Prior of the last updates, there was a bug pointed out by pirateinparadise, which has now been fixed, as he confirmed to be now able to park properly. Again, that's what marshalling is all about.
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