Author Topic: KORD frames per second performance question  (Read 7154 times)

Martyjr

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KORD frames per second performance question
« on: August 29, 2019, 12:22:57 pm »
KORDv2 performance (FPS)

My test information:
FPS locked at 30
No AI or other traffic.
PMDG747 VC cockpit
P3Dv4.5 HF1


I get 14 FPS at KORv2 gate C16
Panning in VC cockpit is jerky
CPU 36%
GPU load 38%



At KMSP gate G4 (Flightbeam) I get 29 FPS
Panning in VC cockpit is smooth
CPU 38%
GPU load is 57%

Is my low FPS at KORDv2 tied to lower GPU load at KORDv2?

Edit:
Next tested KJFKv2
FPS 20
GPU load 22%


« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 12:33:17 pm by Martyjr »
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell

rjlfry

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2019, 01:04:29 pm »
KORD DAY.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/154944674@N05/48629765738/in/dateposted-public/

KORD NIGHT.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/154944674@N05/48629766123/in/dateposted-public/

Locked at 30 FPS 100% AI traffic 35%road traffic medium airport traffic.
4K FPS top left hitting the limit.
PMDG 747-400 v3
CPU clock 4.9 GPU 2080Ti
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 01:09:22 pm by rjlfry »

Martyjr

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2019, 01:11:40 pm »
KORD DAY.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/154944674@N05/48629765738/in/dateposted-public/

KORD NIGHT.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/154944674@N05/48629766123/in/dateposted-public/

Locked at 30 FPS 100% AI traffic 35%road traffic medium airport traffic.
4K FPS top left hitting the limit.
PMDG 747-400 v3
CPU clock 4.9 GPU 2080Ti

My test was in the VC cockpit.
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell

virtuali

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2019, 01:22:33 pm »
I get 14 FPS at KORv2 gate C16

14 fps with no AI seems very strange. How much spare VRAM you have ?

In any case, with the PMDG 747, there's a huge difference between VC and Exterior, see my two screenshots, taken exactly at the same time, VC and Exterior, and compared with the default 747, again under the same settings.

1st screen = default 747 in VC
2st screen = default 747 Exterior
3st screen = PMDG 747 in VC
4st screen = PMDG 747 Exterior

How's your fps with the PMDG Exterior ?

Martyjr

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2019, 01:35:58 pm »
My exterior is 30 FPS KORDv2

"14 fps with no AI seems very strange. How much spare VRAM you have ? "

How do I check that?

Where did the default 747 come from?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 01:38:12 pm by Martyjr »
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell

virtuali

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2019, 01:43:51 pm »
My exterior is 30 FPS KORDv2

Well, at least now you know the PMDG VC is eating half of your fps all by itself, which is not that different from my result.

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How do I check that?

The GPU page of the Performance tab of the Windows Task Manager. See the "Dedicated GPU memory" indication.

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Where did the default 747 come from?

Copy & Paste from the FSX Simobject\Airplanes\B747_400 folder. You can get the default FSX 737 and A321 in the same way.


Martyjr

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2019, 02:08:26 pm »
I do not have FSX.

"Well, at least now you know the PMDG VC is eating half of your fps all by itself, which is not that different from my result."
That was at KORDv2.
Note: same setup KMSP was 30 FPS


I just tested for GPU data you asked for (screenshots).

Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell

virtuali

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2019, 05:29:48 pm »
I do not have FSX.

How this is relevant ? I just wanted to make an example, how fps is taken away by the aircraft, and how much in VC, compared to a differne

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That was at KORDv2. Note: same setup KMSP was 30 FPS

As explained so many times already, it's just wrong comparing two sceneries located in entirely different areas.

My comparison was totally fair: KORD V2 vs KORD V2, setting untouched, the ONLY thing difference was the PMDG vs a default aircraft and, more precisely, the only test that really matters, was PMDG VC vs PMDG Exterior, all else equal, and the undeniable fact is the PMDG VC eats up half of the frame rate, this is a fact. The only difference, is that you started with a lower fps to begin with, but still the PMDG VC is eating half of YOUR fps, same as it's eating half of MY fps.

That's the only fair comparison, comparing with any other scenery it's only misleading, unless it was another scenery for KORD.

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I just tested for GPU data you asked for (screenshots).

Ok, that's explains your problem. You have only 4GB of Dedicated GPU memory (that is the real amount your card has), and we clearly listed 8GB of VRAM as the minimum requirement to use the scenery at full resolution, check the requirements on our shop page and on the O'Hare own page:

http://www.fsdreamteam.com/products_kordv2.html
https://order.shareit.com/product?catalogid=300959243&productid=300963521&vendorid=200281737

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A video card with 8GB of VRAM is required to use the full scenery resolution.

Full PBR sceneries will take more VRAM, that's something we cannot do much about it, since every PBR material must come with its full complement of Albedo+Metallic+Normal maps, otherwise it wouldn't work.

It's not the scenery doesn't run with less than 8GB, but if you want to use it together with other heavy fps-impacting products, like the PMDG VC, you must tone down your settings. The KORD V2 manual has several suggestions on which settings to look for to lower the VRAM usage.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 05:36:59 pm by virtuali »

Martyjr

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2019, 07:44:16 pm »
I mentioned I did not have FSX so you would know I could not test with the default FSX 747.

I compared FSDT KORDv2, FSDT KJFKv2 and KMSP.
I did that to test my system (which is an older PC) with a demanding aircraft PMDG747
And, in my first post I thought GPU load might be the problem with my system.
I just wanted to see what you or other pilots had to say.

8GB of VRAM is minimum for full resolution KORDv2.
Ok I did not previously know that.


*** What is full resolution? I will then check and see what I am set up for now.


I had read the manual and shut down extras (people walkers etc) ... kept GST airport vehicles.


When I looked at the VRAM graph I seen what looks like I had not used all of the 4GB on my card.

*** Is that how you read it?


I just did a test in the default F22 (to get away from PMDG).
I did a screenshot of the resulting FPS 17.7 and graphs.

*** what do you think?


Note: My test with KJFKv2, which does not have an 8GB minimum"  had low FPS also.

Just for reference my full system specs:

Desktop computer
Win10-PRO-64 version 1903 build 18362.295 (7-17-2019)
Gigabyte Z170 motherboard
i7 6700- 4GHz LGA 1151 8MB cache CPU (4 Cores 8 Threads) No overclock , water cooled.
16GB DDR4 Memory
500GB SSD Boot drive C (Crucial by Micron CT500 MX200 SSD)
2TB ST200 DM SCSI Hard drive F
GEForce GT 960 4GB Video card
SoundBlaster Audigy SE Sound Card
750W Power supply
Antec Tower case
Blu-Ray RW CD LG BD-RE drive D
ViewSonic VX2250WM-LED 22-Inch 5ms (21.5-Inch Vis) Widescreen Full HD 1080p LED Monitor with Integrated Stereo Speakers  
ViewSonic VX2250WM-LED 22-Inch 5ms (21.5-Inch Vis) Widescreen Full HD 1080p LED Monitor with Integrated Stereo Speakers
Insignia Tablet (NS-P10A710 FLEX 10.1" ANDROID TABLET) mostly for Remote CDU usage or charts.

Nvidia 436.15
FSUIPC5 registered v5.152
 

Edit:
I am just initially testing KORDv2 on my setup and reading forum post ... I have not actually had a flight yet ... Posting when I see a problem and responding to other posts when I can.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 07:59:19 pm by Martyjr »
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell

virtuali

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2019, 12:44:30 pm »
I mentioned I did not have FSX so you would know I could not test with the default FSX 747.

Not that this makes any difference. It was just as a reference to you but, of course, the most relevant test here was the DIFFERENCE in fps between the PDMG *Exterior* and the PMDG *VC*. Such difference doesn't exists in a default airplane, because the VC is far less detailed.

The undeniable fact here is: the PMDG VC eats up half of YOUR fps and it also eats up half of MY fps. Nothing else is different, the scenery is the same, the settings are the same, the only difference is that half of my fps is still very usable, while half of your fps is bad.

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8GB of VRAM is minimum for full resolution KORDv2. Ok I did not previously know that.

It's not that we are hiding that. Page 10 of the KORD V2 manual:

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We suggest using a video card with at least 8GB of VRAM, and if you use the airport with lots of AI airplanes, surrounding photoreal scenery and airplane with high resolution textures, even 8GB might not be enough, especially if you set the Maximum Texture size to 4096x4096. Lowering this setting to 2048x2048 will surely help.

With your card, I'd go as low as 1024x1024, but now that you posted your specs, I'm not even sure that would help much, the GT960 was a mid-range card in early 2015 when it came out, and P3D4.4 (the 1st PBR version), came out in late 2018, so it simply too weak for P3D4 PBR.

See how it compares against a 1080Ti:

https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GTX-1080-Ti-vs-Nvidia-GTX-960/3918vs3165

Check the fps results, they are at least doubled in almost all games tested.


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*** What is full resolution? I will then check and see what I am set up for now.

Most of the scenery textures are 2K each and some are 4K. If you lower the Max texture size in the sim, you can reduce the overall video memory usage.

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When I looked at the VRAM graph I seen what looks like I had not used all of the 4GB on my card. *** Is that how you read it?

That you results are even worse because of that. I cannot possibly know why but, if not all your VRAM is used, your card is working even worse than it should. Obviously, VRAM allocation is done entirely outside our control, by the video driver and the OS and DirectX itself.

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I just did a test in the default F22 (to get away from PMDG).
I did a screenshot of the resulting FPS 17.7 and graphs.

*** what do you think?

That you must lower your settings, because your video card is too weak for KORD V2.

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Note: My test with KJFKv2, which does not have an 8GB minimum"  had low FPS also.

New York is known to be very fps intensive and KJFK V2 is not a P3D4 native scenery. How's your fps at default JFK, for example ?

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GEForce GT 960 4GB Video card

That's is your weak link, and it's a seriously underpowered card for your CPU and for P3D4 in general. I have the same 4 years old CPU you have, but I have a 1080Ti with 11GB, and that makes all the difference.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 12:54:32 pm by virtuali »

Martyjr

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2019, 03:58:02 pm »
8 GB of VRAM minimum for full resolution.
"It's not that we are hiding that. Page 10 of the KORD V2 manual:"


I did not know that because I did not read the sales page or manual before purchasing and I had not seen any cautions about vram requirements in the forum posts prior to release day.

But, I do not use full resolution anyway.
I do not have sliders maxed out because I do have an older PC.

And, I had every intention of purchasing FSDT KORDv2 anyway and giving it a test on my older system.


"With your card, I'd go as low as 1024x1024, but now that you posted your specs, I'm not even sure that would help much, the GT960 was a mid-range card in early 2015 when it came out, and P3D4.4 (the 1st PBR version), came out in late 2018, so it simply too weak for P3D4 PBR."

My texture resolution is 2048.

Now, the reason for my initial post and question was because of all my payware airports I have only 3:
KORDv2
KLAXv2
KJFKv2
that are at 20 FPS or lower on my setup instead of what I had expected (30 FPS) and I was wondering why.


I suspected the reason was, as I mentioned in my first post:
Is my low FPS at KORDv2 tied to lower GPU load at KORDv2?

As far as I can tell my GPU load is the same for all my payware airports including KORDv2, KLAXv2 and KJFKv2.

And of course I am using resolution 2048 for all of them.



"That you must lower your settings, because your video card is too weak for KORD V2."
Judging from my tests my video card is only too week for all my FSDT airports.

At the moment I will not upgrade my video card for 3 FSDT airports.

However, I know my PC is older and I do need to get a new one.



 
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell

Farlis

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2019, 06:01:54 pm »
Your CPU is no that bad. Sure it is not top tier at this point, but it should still pack a considerable punch.
The weak point in your setup is definately the GPU. By far.

So I'd try upgrading just the GPU as a first step. That should already give you a considerable boost and buy you another 24 months before you actually should consider upgrading the rest.

virtuali

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Re: KORD frames per second performance question
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2019, 10:28:20 am »
I did not know that because I did not read the sales page or manual before purchasing and I had not seen any cautions about vram requirements in the forum posts prior to release day.

In theory, we shouldn't even have to put system requirements on the web page, because we have a Trial, which of course includes the manual to read.

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My texture resolution is 2048

Since most of the textures at KORD V2 are at 2048, then yes, you ARE using KORD V2 at its maximum resolution, which cannot be done with less than 8GB of VRAM.

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Is my low FPS at KORDv2 tied to lower GPU load at KORDv2?

It's possible the simulator itself, seeing there's not enough VRAM available, is not even trying to use the GPU.

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As far as I can tell my GPU load is the same for all my payware airports including KORDv2, KLAXv2 and KJFKv2. And of course I am using resolution 2048 for all of them.

VRAM is only an aspect of your problem. The main problem is the limited number of shader units your card has compared to modern cards, which affects the speed it can run advanced shaders.

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"That you must lower your settings, because your video card is too weak for KORD V2." Judging from my tests my video card is only too week for all my FSDT airports.

That's because we always used advanced shaders, even before PBR, while other developers were usually ok with simpler materials. With PBR, using simpler materials is not really possible, so all proper PBR sceneries will be more GPU-bound, and this is a GOOD THING, because GPUs are easy to upgrade and gets better and better, while being CPU bound ( older sceneries are more CPU-bound ) is a bad thing, because updating the CPU is very hard, and usually means a new PC.


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At the moment I will not upgrade my video card for 3 FSDT airports.

You will, sooner or later, because all future sceneries will be like that. If they are good.