GSX Level 2 - More control over the passengers?

[DreamSkywards]

Hi,

I have seen a few people discuss this on Facebook, and I did participate myself too but I feel it would be taken more seriously on the official forum for such questions/requests/demands, etc.

Honestly, the only downside for me with GSX Level 2, is the lack of control the user have over the passengers.

What I mean by that is, lack of control over the number of passengers, and lack of control over the type of passengers we would have board/deboard our planes.

I believe it would be more intuitive and more immersive, if the user had a GSX Level 2 UI that came with the expansion.
A parameters window where we could input the number of pax. and crew on board, and the type of pax.

Flight Crew: [4]
Cabin Crew: [8]
Passengers: [15]
Type of Passengers: [Random] or [Select]

And if we pick [Select] option, a dropdown list appears where you input the number besides icons of the type of passengers you (FSDreamTeam) modeled.

This is just an example of the way this could be implemented. Your developpers would know best how to do it.

Everything, of course, complient with the limitations you as developers face. I can only maybe try to ask what can be done or can't, but the last words are yours.

Aybars



Why give all of the control over the pax to airplane developpers? Would it not be possible to have it both ways?
We could either let GSX or the airplane devs do the math, or we are given full control over it as demonstrated above.

[virtuali]

Why give all of the control over the pax to airplane developpers? Would it not be possible to have it both ways?

Because only them can possibly know how to properly affect THEIR own payload simulation. And if they do it, you wouldn't even had to manually enter the number of passengers twice (one in the airplane, another time in GSX), it will all automatic.

Honestly, the only downside for me with GSX Level 2, is the lack of control the user have over the passengers.

I don't think is right to let user specify a number of passengers that might not have a direct relationship with the *actual* airplane payload. So, it's either calculated automatically ( from the *actual* payload ), or specified by the airplane developer, which will simply translate their own passenger numbers, using whatever interface/method they already have in place, into the same figure for GSX.

Easier, more coherent, and with less chance of mistakes.

[DreamSkywards]

My worry concerns private jets, as that is what I fly most of the time. Often times the ones I see (I live in Geneva, we are the 3rd busiest airport in Europe for private jets after Paris Le Bourget and Nice) are quite heavy, but not because they fly hundreds of pax, but because of the customized interiors and/or the fuel load. A heavy plane dosen't necessarily mean 300 pax. on board, so for me being able to tell GSX the type and number of pax would be crucial.

I also don't mind the redundancy and the hardship of the task if it does what I want but oh well, can't have everything you want!

[virtuali]

Often times the ones I see (I live in Geneva, we are the 3rd busiest airport in Europe for private jets after Paris Le Bourget and Nice) are quite heavy, but not because they fly hundreds of pax, but because of the customized interiors and/or the fuel load.

We don't take the TOTAL airplane weight to estimate the passenger number!!

We use ONLY what the sim calls "payload stations", which are supposed to be either passengers and/or cargo. Normally, things that don't change in a certain airplane variant, like the customized interiors, should not be represented as "stations", but as part of the airplane empty weight. And fuel, of course, has its own separate weights, which GSX never consider to estimate the airplane load.

[DreamSkywards]

Often times the ones I see (I live in Geneva, we are the 3rd busiest airport in Europe for private jets after Paris Le Bourget and Nice) are quite heavy, but not because they fly hundreds of pax, but because of the customized interiors and/or the fuel load.

We don't take the TOTAL airplane weight to estimate the passenger number!!

We use ONLY what the sim calls "payload stations", which are supposed to be either passengers and/or cargo. Normally, things that don't change in a certain airplane variant, like the customized interiors, should not be represented as "stations", but as part of the airplane empty weight. And fuel, of course, has its own separate weights, which GSX never consider to estimate the airplane load.

Hi Umberto.

After some research and trial and error with the "payload stations", I finally managed to do what I wanted, at least as far as the pax. numbers are concerned, and I'm absolutely satisfied.

I also noticed that, on the "payload stations" of some aircrafts, the cabins are named. First, Business, Economy etc.
If I put XXX weight on First and 0 on Business and Economy, will GSX Level 2 know that and spawn men/women accordingly? I mean people that actually look like they are boarding First class, maybe even men/women in suits or etc? That would be great.

PS: Can we expect different models of bus/transportation in relation to the classes (F/B/E) mentioned above? I mean, like a black van or limo. for some of the upper end class people instead of cramming them in a bus with pax. from economy?

Thank you for all your replies untill now.

Aybars

[avantime]

I too would like to manually select passenger numbers instead of relying on weight readouts, that's because every other aircraft developer seem to have a different interpretation on how their aircraft should be loaded. Maybe have this as a option in the settings menu so others can disable it if they don't like it. Select-able to the nearest 10 passengers would do.

so here's how I think could work:

Select boarding passengers > Menu asks how many pax?

0-10
10-100
101-200
201-300
301-400
401-500
501-600

I select 101-200 > How many pax?

101-110
111-120
121-130
131-140
141-150
151-160
161-170
171-180
181-190
191-200

I select 141-150 > GSX starts boarding. (GSX won't tell the simmer how many passengers will be loaded, but will use the boarding time for 145 passengers)

[virtuali]

I also noticed that, on the "payload stations" of some aircrafts, the cabins are named. First, Business, Economy etc. If I put XXX weight on First and 0 on Business and Economy, will GSX Level 2 know that and spawn men/women accordingly? I mean people that actually look like they are boarding First class, maybe even men/women in suits or etc? That would be great.

That's not possible, since those names are entirely arbitrary: there's no precise "type" for a station, like we have for gears, for example. A payload station can be named "Economy", "Coach", "World Traveler" or any other fancy name the airline can use so, there's no sure way to identify its meaning and, it can be either a group of people (or even cargo), but can also be a single person.

[virtuali]

so here's how I think could work:

You are making it unnecessarily complex, when GSX can ALREADY estimate the number of passengers automatically without airplane developer support and, with airplane developers support, it can just get the actual precise figure without any user intervention.

You extra step introduces an additional complexity step, forces you to do the same operation twice (first in the airplane loader, then in GSX), and adds a chance to mismatch the two causing mistakes which would in turn become support questions we'll have to reply on the forum.

And, what value will add ? Let's assume you use an airplane where the developer didn't support GSX, so it relies on the GSX estimate so, for example, GSX calculated 150 passengers, while the proprietary airplane loader set it to, let's say, 145. Would you really be able to notice those additional 5 passengers ?

The real reason of having the ability for airplane developers to set the number of passengers for GSX is NOT really to have the numbers matching precisely (although they will), but more to prevent issues with airplanes loading passengers progressively, which would confuse GSX (or not), depending at which stage of the progressive load process you called GSX. Instead, when the airplane sets the GSX variable correctly, GSX will known how many passengers WILL have to be loaded, so it won't use the payload station weight anymore, so it won't be confused by the progressive loading process.

If the airplane doesn't do any progressive loading, the default GSX estimation is good enough.

[avantime]

And, what value will add ? Let's assume you use an airplane where the developer didn't support GSX, so it relies on the GSX estimate so, for example, GSX calculated 150 passengers, while the proprietary airplane loader set it to, let's say, 145. Would you really be able to notice those additional 5 passengers ?

The problem for me is that the GSX estimate is vastly off for the aircraft I fly, like up to 200 extra pax. In aircraft like the PMDG 747 GSX counts cargo as pax, because you yourself said earlier that "the best we could come up with, was adding all the stations together, and divide by 220 lbs, to give a rough estimate on the number of passengers." (http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,16897.msg119683.html#msg119683)

Adding 200 passengers substantially increases the boarding time, and in many cases the estimate exceeds the max number of seats in the aircraft.

when the airplane sets the GSX variable correctly, GSX will known how many passengers WILL have to be loaded

Don't expect aircraft developers to bend over backwards to accommodate GSX, as they will always do their own thing as they see fit.

I don't use progressive loading methods like PMDG's ground ops, I just enter the ZFW from the PFPX flight plan and start GSX. However I don't want to waste my time sitting at the gate and potentially miss my EOBT, because GSX thinks there are 600 pax to be boarded in a 747. This is why I want some sort of manual entry solution.

[virtuali]

The problem for me is that the GSX estimate is vastly off for the aircraft I fly, like up to 200 extra pax.

That's not something we can do about it. As explained, so many times already, the payload system of the simulator won't give any indication about the station type: it can be anything, from a single passenger/pilot, to a group of people, but can also be just cargo, with no way for addons to differentiate.

The only way to fix this, would be extending the GSX airplane configuration editor to let it specify how much of the loading stations is cargo and how much is not. Something that we were already planning to do, since we were working on an other expansion dedicated to Cargo operation (which has been put on hold until we release this one) allowing to overcome the limitations of the default payload system.

Don't expect aircraft developers to bend over backwards to accommodate GSX, as they will always do their own thing as they see fit.

I don't know what do you mean with "bend over backwards". It's a question of market an competition: we already have several major developers that found this to be very interesting and very easy to add so, if they start doing this and advertise it as a feature, more will come.

This is why I want some sort of manual entry solution.

If we'll ever add it, it surely won't be the default.

[avantime]

The only way to fix this, would be extending the GSX airplane configuration editor to let it specify how much of the loading stations is cargo and how much is not. Something that we were already planning to do, since we were working on an other expansion dedicated to Cargo operation (which has been put on hold until we release this one) allowing to overcome the limitations of the default payload system.

Let's hope you do, more accurate GSX estimates are a good thing.

I don't know what do you mean with "bend over backwards". It's a question of market an competition: we already have several major developers that found this to be very interesting and very easy to add so, if they start doing this and advertise it as a feature, more will come.

It's like PMDG's ground operations. I never used it because I have GSX, but they added it anyway. My point is that addon developers will always do their own thing, while some will just be too plain lazy to bother. So I think it's good to have some sort of manual input, until GSX estimates get better with the cargo ops expansion.

If we'll ever add it, it surely won't be the default.

Understood. Just note however that some simmers don't care how many pax are in each section (First/Business/Economy etc.) because all they need is the ZFW , CG %MAC and maybe the total souls on board (for ATC/VATSIM purposes) to fly. However the issue with entering just ZFW is that GSX gives wildly inaccurate pax numbers and boarding times, until you guys fix the loading stations with the cargo ops expansion.

For example for the FSLabs A320 and PMDG addons I don't specify which pax goes into which section of the cabin, I just enter the ZFW and move on. For the Flightfactor A320 on X-Plane I have to enter the total pax, and then add cargo as necessary to match the ZFW in the flight plan. Both addons will calculate CG which I use to set takeoff trim. The Flightfactor requires a bit more busywork because the PFPX profile doesn't match the addon, and also the addon isn't completely realistic in terms of performance.

[virtuali]

There will an option in the GSX Setting, which will control if GSX will automatically estimate the passengers number when the airplane is not setting it. By default, it will work as it always did but, by disabling the automatic estimate, a text input will appear, asking to confirm/set/change what the GSX estimate would be.

[Captain Kevin]

It's like PMDG's ground operations. I never used it because I have GSX, but they added it anyway.

And suppose somebody DOESN'T have GSX. Do they get forced to buy GSX, or do they get forced to run their simulators without ground operations. Not exactly the best example there.

[FireCapt]

hi
Umberto,

I have one more question sir.  will GEX passenger recognize rotary winga aircraft on loading and unloading of passengers for us Helicopter pilots? 

[virtuali]

I have one more question sir.  will GEX passenger recognize rotary winga aircraft on loading and unloading of passengers for us Helicopter pilots? 

Well, we'll have a feature to support airplanes that don't use stairs and have their own integrated staircase so, I guess it might be possible to use it to simulate a very short one-step only and use it on an helicopter.