F-18 carrier brake problems

[SpazSinbad]

Here is a line up correction illustration from a Goshawk 'gouge'. Imagine a Hornet lined up properly at lower part of diagram to the right of the carrier wake with ship going straight up the diagram but angled deck is not doing that. In the upper picture imagine if the 'hornet' did nothing it would be to the left of centreline because the ship is taking all of the angled deck away from the aircraft which is NOT flying straight up the picture. HTH.

[SpazSinbad]

Another 'in close' carrier approach pic. This time the 'camera view' makes it look like the camera is lined up with the right hand edge of the landing area with ball slightly high (remember this is not the 'pilot eye' view).

Then there are two pics showing a Prowler initally badly lined up left with second pic being lined up OK. Maybe the two photos were not taken on the same approach. Looking at the first badly lined up left pic (depending on aircraft) it is likely the LSO would wave off this one. Perhaps the zoom lens of the camera makes the aircraft look closer to the carrier than it is in reality. So there may well be plenty of room to correct the line up in time.

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[burner12]

You Spaz I should have thoguht of this earlier. Whenever I line up to the right the ship is moving to the right so it either puts me slightly off center or on center because I'm correcting for the movement while it's moving. So to start a final line up slightly on the right side of the approach pattern so the ship will make you line up with the center line, and don't line up with the centerline because that will cause you to go left. After trying thaat I'm getting better results. Am I correct about this?

[SpazSinbad]

burner12: Your technique as I'm understanding it 'MAY' work in FSX but it will not work in real world. Perhaps it is better to try to line up accurately right from the beginning. (Yes, you understand about crossing the wake to achieve this.) However YOU are flying the aircraft. The CARRIER is not flying you.

Don't think of the carrier doing anything when you are actually doing your approaches. Everything you are doing is relative to MLA. Nothing else matters. The carrier could be stopped or steaming out of wind or have the wind coming in the exact opposite direction. Does not matter (as long as conditions are safe and usually the wind is down the angle for sure). You are flying the mirror relative to the angled deck of the carrier. If you concentrate on this aspect then you will not notice what the carrier is doing because it is irrelevant. Concentrate on flying the exact parameters without regard for other things (like letting the ship drift to where you want it to be as you arrest). Yes your technique as described would be another way to THINK about the problem; so that you FLY the aircraft according to the universal LSO/pilot recommendations I have tried to outline.

Of course there is much more to it than I can hope to post by typing here; and more to it than I can know, not having flown a Hornet. But the basics of carrier approaches in the jet era have been the same (with minor variations in technique) for actually flying any particular aircraft. These basic techniques work. Although they will seem odd when you have been used to landing only on a runway. This is the fun and challenge of carrier flying. It needs to be done as precisely as you can manage - all the way. One reason why the recent pics have been added is to get you to see the subtle differences that a pilot is looking for during his approach, to get back to the correct parameters. With practice you will get much better for sure. Practice is what it takes, and here is where the LSO becomes important in carrier flying because he (with experience) knows what the pilot is doing to then help him correct his technique errors; and of course to criticise every approach if that is what is needed. No one should have a problem with an LSO telling them what is not going right on their approaches.

Another thought about these line up or carrier approach issues is this: When the aircraft is further away from the mirror the aircraft corrections needed are much more gross (to achieve getting back on line up, OAoA & meatball in the middle). The cone of what is correct becomes smaller the closer the aircraft gets to the carrier/mirror. So what control corrections were needed with the same view way out - when a lot closer - will require more subtle control inputs to achieve the same result. Another reason to be on the correct parameters as soon as possible.

From memory a 'late lineup' correction was always problematic because in the short time available the pilot has to add a bit of power (because the wings are not level so lift is lost) while the nose usually drops at the same time. You get my drift? (Please don't drift into the ramp.) All the control changes being made require other control changes. Do what is required - trying to keep in mind to be more subtle if you are near the carrier.

Conversely being TOO SMOOTH (by drifting to the correct parameter) is a big no no. Yes you can be smooth and accurate. Try to achieve both. I probably will never achieve it but trying all the time to achieve the best approach.

Now there is a night/dusk time lapse pic showing how the approach glideslope corrections way out become more subtle in close.

[burner12]

Spaz thanks for all your help. 

So what you are saying is that in FSX you don't need to line up to the right a little to counteract the movement of the carrier.

Because when I lined up on centerline I always spin out. Is it you HAVE TO BE JUST DIRECTLY on CENTERLINE to trap smoothly or is it my flying ability or some option i have turned on and don't know about?

Spaz I was wondering could you record your approaches and send them to me so i can seee how you do it. If not can you give me detailed instructions on alt. airspd and line up on glideslope?

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, I'm happy to have an input and would welcome other input also. My experience was over 35 years ago in A4G Skyhawks but since then I think my memory for carrier flying has been good; while being enhanced now by thinking about these issues we discuss (generally). The internet is a marvellous place to find out stuff. There are lots of LSO publications available for free download, as has been indicated in other posts. However I understand that to 'understand them' may require some background information. Certainly I need that for 'how to fly the Hornet'. But I'll stress the carrier approach basics are the same.

Recently I'm only doing FCLP (with hook down because I need the AoA indexer working for me). I have not even thought about using the HUD so far. And I still need to install FSX. Frankly IMHO to learn carrier flying - using a less complicated aircraft - would be ideal. The freeware Goshawk T-45C is excellent. I have set up (in earlier iteration of FSX) a 30 knot westerly wind down RW 26 at NAS Nowra at dusk to simulate FCLP (but have some daylight scenery for video viewers to look at). The strong wind simulates the strong wind over the deck of a carrier; and also simulates the real conditions at Nowra in the late winter early spring.

Having a strong WOD to practice in at an airfield means that the approach ground speed will be slower and there will be an "apparent" (depending on where you turn base) longer approach to get things right. At moment the Goshawk will fly at about 10KIAS too slow (according to the specs) but 'how' it flies is excellent. Also it has a good AoA indexer to use - same as Hornet. I cannot even remember if it has a HUD because I don't use it. :-) It does have the 'HUD only view' which looks odd because of zoomed scenery but I don't fly using that - just demonstrate the view of it for viewers. These videos are at FileFront at: (a video may show the AoA indexer not working correctly - this was the test)
http://hosted.filefront.com/SpazSinbad/
OR: http://hosted.filefront.com/SpazSinbad/2116553

If you go to that page there are many videos of circuits both High Quality; or the same video in Low Quality for easier download. These are not meant for any teaching as 'how to deck land or FCLP' - they are just tests for various aspects of the sim and FRAPS etc. However sometimes I do manage to concentrate long enough on the AoA indexer to get it to show the doughnut.

When I have more time I'll attempt to make Hornet Videos but don't hold your breath. There are good videos out there. The one explaining 'how to carrier land the Hornet' made by the SimBlueAngels is excellent. I don't have the resources or skill to top that terrific effort. It is really good. Go watch that. :-) Download it so you can watch it over and over.

An earlier post on another thread on this forum had a NATOPS diagram illustrating the main points of a carrier circuit. However that is a lot to do in one sortie. I would recommend that not only do you do FCLP (without a mirror - unless you can arrange that) but that you also set up a sortie that has you starting on a long final to the carrier with sufficient fuel so that you start under the same conditions [dirty - ready to land with flaps & hook down, S/B out - on speed (doughnut)] and from that start 'well set up' you can practise over and over. You will see how variations affect the landing etc.

Back to your line up question. It has been awhile since I did a Hornet sim carrier landing. I have not done any of those TopGun approaches, if you talk about those. DO NOT WORRY about what the carrier is doing. It is irrelevant if you carry out my advice and that is: MLA - fly on the centreline as best you can at all times. Fly the doughnut (or whatever you see in the HUD) for Optimum Angle of Attack and of course fly the meatball as accurately as you can.

Now this is the problem to my mind about FSX or any carrier sim on a desktop. The view from the aircraft at a reasonable approach distance after line up is not clear. So a bit of 'deck spotting' will get you in the right position to then fly the meatball when you can see it. Nothing can be done about that except having a mirror in a separate window on your screen. For myself I have not got around to figuring out how to do that - it would be helpful - if you follow what I'm saying. That way you will have a clear view of the mirror even at a distance and you can, at the beginning of the approach, spend more time getting lined up and stay on speed (Optimum Angle of Attack remember). It is way to difficult to fly airspeed when it will always change as the aircraft weight changes to attain the OAoA. This angle of attack will get you aboard correctly, provided you are on centreline, and 'on the ball'.

If you are starting to the right of the wake so that you are on the angled centreline - and staying there - then you should have no trouble. All I can think of is that you have some rudder or rudder trim enabled to skew the aircraft to the right, or whatever, as you go down the centreline? The hornet must be trimmed properly in all axes. Try again to fly at a lower realism setting. Be successful with that and then start turning up the realism. No one expects anyone to hack deck landing straight away. OK. It is different - much different to anything else. And practise practise practise.
:-)

[micro]

Having done it a couple times, I can tell you that it is purely speed related. Come in too fast = Spin out.

[SpazSinbad]

microbrewst, do you use the HUD or AoA indexer? How would you use the HUD please? Thanks.

More pics including an 'at ramp' pic here: http://www.check-6.com/gallery/carriers_007.php

In the RF-8G 'at ramp' pic below USS Saratoga we can see the ball almost perfect with the datum lights either side not symmetrical, a feature of that mirror I guess? Spot on the centreline for lineup.

HUD Symbology is for the Super Hornet out of their NATOPS.

Now viewing this 8.5Mb .WMV video at URL below I can see the AoA indexer symbol according to NATOPS diagram (right hand side) above. Could never figure this out before. Sigh.

http://files.filefront.com/HUDhornetDLhiQlargewmv/;13541768;/fileinfo.html



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[burner12]

Spaz would you agree with micro in that it's speed related? I start at about 155-162 then slow her down to 149. Also I don't know if the carriers in acceleration were designed to be flown from the right to line up on centerline. IMO they were designed so that you always flew centerline.

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, I think I need input from others more knowledgeable and experienced with the Hornet in FSX Accelerator. I admit to not a lot of experience myself; but hope to remedy that soon enough.

I think there are some fundamental misunderstandings. First you must fly the appropriate Angle of Attack for your All Up Weight. If you do this your airspeed (if your aircraft is under the maximum AUW) is what the Optimum Angle of Attack says it is - then well and good. However to me the airspeed is irrelevant. What is relevant is the Optimum Angle of Attack - for your AUW - at that time. This OAoA will never vary. What will vary up and down with your AUW up and down will be the IAS correspondingly. However please do not fly using airspeed. I cannot stress that enough. Carrier pilots do not fly using the airspeed indicator. They fly using the OAoA indications.

At first I thought (as was the case in much older Navy aircraft) that it would be OK to use only the AoA indexer (not the HUD). But that was my ignorance about how the Hornet is flown in the USN today. Today I saw on one of the online LSO manuals that NOT having a HUD is considered an 'emergency'. :-) So there I have been trying to land a Hornet in a self-generated emergency (because I had no idea how to use the HUD properly). However now understanding that video of the HUD (from info today) it makes more sense to me perhaps to use the HUD. But again however I am very comfortable using the AoA indexer because that is all I know. OK? :-)

Using just airspeed is a NoNo unless that is the only way you can fly the Hornet for the moment. Please learn how to use the HUD. The diagram above on the right side shows where the AoA indexer is on the HUD. Keep that indicator centred (at least that is how I understand it - please someone correct me if I'm wrong here) to fly OAoA or otherwise use the AoA indexer (the red/green coloured chevrons and orange doughnut on the left side of the HUD).

IF you have the wrong airspeed for your AUW then you may be flying either TOO FAST or TOO SLOW compared to what the real airspeed should be at the Optimum Angle of Attack. Without you telling us what your 'all up weight' is at that time, then we cannot say what the Optimum angle of attack airspeed should be. I'm hoping you understand that point. However you should ignore the airspeed and fly the Optimum Angle of attack. Life is much easier then. Yes it will seem odd but everything about carrier landing is odd at the beginning. Don't be disappointed that you find it more difficult than you imagined. It is difficult and it is made more difficult by the many limitations in FSX particularly with a small screen with not a good view until you are in close. It is tough to do good carrier landings with a small screen simulator. No question.

Another point about flying airspeed (rather than angle of attack at optimum) is that if you are TOO FAST your nose is too low, the hook is higher than it should be in relation to the aircraft at otherwise the OAoA and you risk breaking the arrestor gear by being too fast for that AUW. OR you will just break the landing gear for the same reason. Using OAoA is like the saving thing about carrier approaches. It is different only in that no one refers to the correct airspeed, only to the Optimum Angle of Attack.

Conversely if you are TOO SLOW for your all up weight at that time your nose will be too high with the hook point being much lower than it should be. This is when you can catch the ramp with the hook or worse. Another danger is that you are closer to the stalling speed and if underpowered you are going to sink into a water landing. It happens. If you get all messed up then Wave Off and try again.

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying about the angle centreline. Please line up on the angled centreline as soon as you can. Project that angled centreline from the stern of the carrier out to where you are - let us say a mile. At that distance you will be in a spot that is well to the right of the wake turbulence in the water generated by the carrier. This is in effect where the axial centreline of the carrier is. Do not line up on this incorrect centreline. Do not start your approach to the ship from over the wake. You are in the wrong position with a lot of work to get to the right to be on the angle centreline. OK?

So the rule of thumb is too 'cross the wake' during your base turn to be anywhere near the angled centreline. Do not start anywhere else. Start your approach on the angled centreline, on speed (which is always the Optimum Angle of Attack - NOT the indicated airspeed) and on glide path with the meatball centred if you can see it. Because of the limitations of the sim it is not easy to see the mirror so I guess everyone including me is deck spotting at the beginning but as soon as you can see the mirror use that as your reference.

Please practice ashore. Please practice from a constant good beginning from a start at 1-2 miles dirty so that you get experience doing the same approach start over and over. Please do a good start. Save that good start as a flight that you can go back to to practice over and over if you don't want to practice ashore. Practice practice practice. Did I say 'practice'? :-)

I might make mention that a carrier approach - to stay on glideslope (with the two other things always being good such as OAoA and angled centreline) you need to use the power lever a lot. Use it in small amounts from a good trimmed level flight dirty at OAoA. Anticipate as best you can to change more power to less power as you get back on glideslope. It is possible to add nose corrections to maintain the OAoA as you change the power. For every correction there will be another correction in the opposite direction that hopefully becomes smaller and smaller as you approach the carrier with the glideslope window for a good arrest also getting smaller and smaller. Do not make big corrections near the ship. Try to be on centreline at least with your aircraft fore and aft parallel to the angled deck fore and aft line.

Keep asking questions as required. I'll call it a night now.

[burner12]

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying about the angle centreline. Please line up on the angled centreline as soon as you can. Project that angled centreline from the stern of the carrier out to where you are - let us say a mile. At that distance you will be in a spot that is well to the right of the wake turbulence in the water generated by the carrier. This is in effect where the axial centreline of the carrier is. Do not line up on this incorrect centreline. Do not start your approach to the ship from over the wake. You are in the wrong position with a lot of work to get to the right to be on the angle centreline. OK?

So the rule of thumb is too 'cross the wake' during your base turn to be anywhere near the angled centreline. Do not start anywhere else. Start your approach on the angled centreline, on speed (which is always the Optimum Angle of Attack - NOT the indicated airspeed) and on glide path with the meatball centred if you can see it. Because of the limitations of the sim it is not easy to see the mirror so I guess everyone including me is deck spotting at the beginning but as soon as you can see the mirror use that as your reference.

Keep asking questions as required. I'll call it a night now.

Maybe I misunderstood you but you said to start about 1 mile out so when you line up on center you are already  a little to the right of center but it will correct. Then you said to cross the wake. Wouldn't that mean you're starting less then a mile away?  Sorry to keep pestering you. Let me know if you want  to end the conversation.

[SUBS17]

Spaz would you agree with micro in that it's speed related? I start at about 155-162 then slow her down to 149. Also I don't know if the carriers in acceleration were designed to be flown from the right to line up on centerline. IMO they were designed so that you always flew centerline.

Still too fast try 135kts and also use the Carrier tutorial mission as the custom missions sometimes are less forgiving than carrier tutorial or practice mission.

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, seems to me that subs17 is giving you good practical advice for your sim flying. Would not it be possible to save (at the start of a good setup practice approach) that start point to then start always for yourself over and over at that same start point to get good practice at carrier approaches without all the hoohaa inbetween? :-) Repetition starting with the same parameters is good because then you will notice variations and consequences after many repetitions.

Again I cannot comment on the 135 knots to use because to me that IAS depends on your AUW at the time to have Optimum Angle of Attack. Sorry to bang on about this aspect. However I acknowledge if you practise your carrier approaches at the same AUW and know what the correct IAS is for the correct OAoA then by all means if that is how you want to do it - use that correct IAS for that AUW. However try to make the transition to using either the AoA Indexer or the HUD AoA indexer when you can. Also I would recommend changing the glass on the HUD to clear (see other thread on this forum about this aspect).
________________

burner12, it is difficult to type sufficient words about a complicated process. At some point I have to assume that you are understanding what I'm typing here. So thanks for asking your question about the 'start point'.

Mostly I'm generalising and you have taken some phrases to be 'gospel'. I gather you are familiar with all the advice and content and content at other URLs mentioned on this forum. Please ensure that you download and view the FSXblueAngels video about 'how to do carrier landings'. It is an excellent introduction to all of it. If you are not able to download to view repeatedly this video for good understanding of it then let me know. Thanks.

There are several points on a carrier approach that are given names. 'Start' 'Middle' 'In Close' 'At (the) Ramp'. 'Start' is referring to when you are wings level at about 1.5 miles for example on glidepath on speed on the centreline. That is the ideal start point although EXACTLY what the ideal start might be for the Hornet I do not claim to know. This is a suggestion from me.

Go to the start point by whatever means you wish so that you are there dirty - trimmed and ready to land.

You could get there by doing a circuit & base turn. Or fly there from any direction but that can be difficult because it is difficult to see the carrier from any distance at low level in the FSX sim. Also in real life - that is why jets do 'break entries' to downwind/base for a carrier landing during the daytime. Night time it is different.

Other threads have the NATOPS Hornet Carrier Circuit diagram. Please save this diagram to your computer so that you can study it, or print it out to have it near your monitor to keep you guided about what you are trying to achieve.

To get back to your last comment "start about 1 mile out so when you line up on center you are already a little to the right of center but it will correct". I do not mean to confuse you but hope to explain with words what is complicated to carry out. Bear with me. If you start at one mile or 1.5 mile ready to land then you will need to be at that ideal 'start point' which is situated on the extended angle centreline. There is no other start point.

Do not allow the carrier to do your flying for you. You are always flying relative to the carrier. Nothing else matters. Do not allow any drift to develop either for your aircraft or anticipating where you and the carrier will be when you are drifting. It seems to me that this 'drifting' or 'crabbing' is causing some of your landing crashes. You need to fly your aircraft at all times to maximise its position relative to those three parameters: OAoA - centreline - glideslope. Get back to the ideal at every opportunity. Drifting back is a bad technique that will cause you grief.

My comment about 'crossing the wake' was in reference to doing an ordinary circuit with a base turn as indicated on the NATOPS carrier cct diagram. When doing the base turn you must fly the aircraft so that during the turn it crosses the carrier wake. If you do not do this while attempting to lineup you will naturally be well left of the angled centreline. Then it will be difficult to get back to the angled centreline (by crossing the wake - there is no other way!) in time for you to settle down with the correct parameters. Perhaps you need to decide how you are going to practice carrier landings. As recommended by me set up a mission or flight that has you starting with a good start at or near the ideal 'start point' mentioned above. Then all you need to do is fly down that 'funnel' to a good landing without any drift. :-)

I don't regard your questions as pestering burner12. I can always try to improve my efforts to explain. It is a two way process. If you do not understand then ask again. I have learnt a lot already in the last two days that I had no idea about some aspects of Hornet carrier flying (indicated earlier in this thread). To me that is a good thing.

I'll recommend again that you practise carrier flying away from the carrier (at a few thousand feet) and then practice on a regular runway; and then go out to the carrier. There is a lot to do in a short amount of time at the carrier. Giving yourself an opportunity to practise in easier environments is worthwhile practise. After all this is what is done in real world flying. No one does their first solo to go immediately out to land on a carrier. 

[SpazSinbad]

WMV Video shows a Hornet Carrier Landing from a day circuit just before base turn. The pilot is looking left with a slight left wing waggle when he is looking most likely. The LSO tells him about the Wind Over the Deck down the angled deck (WOD). Pilot asks about whether procedure today is 'Hornet Full Flap' (sometimes I gather for different conditions the Hornet will use half flap). During the base turn there is an alarm 'whoop' (don't know why) however just after that sound you will see in the lower left hand corner the white wake. See how the Hornet 'crosses the wake' to then line up on the angled deck.

Looks like a short approach. Watch the mirror - see how the Hornet stays lined up. From this HUD view the approach angle may look steeper than it is but it does look steep. Notice how the ball is lined up all the way down to touchdown. Then at the last you hear engine go to full power during arrest.

This first example is larger than the second one (which are both the same otherwise). Reason for first 'better quality' is an effort to help see the HUD details but really there is not much difference between the two versions. So download the small one to get an idea anyway of what a Hornet Day Carrier Circuit looks like 'through the HUD'.

(43Mb) http://files.filefront.com/HornetDLcanastaHiQwmv/;13550223;/fileinfo.html (HIGHER QUALITY)
[use the "Download Now!" button rather than view/download the .FLV video version via black screen]
OR
(22Mb) http://files.filefront.com/HornetDLcanastawmv/;13550226;/fileinfo.html (SAME lower quality)
&
HORNET ESP (FSX) Carrier Landing demo .WMV video (14Mb):
http://files.filefront.com/HORNET+ESP+DL+hiqwmv/;13550694;/fileinfo.html

[micro]

To elaborate on my previous post:

Most of the time when people experience this problem they are coming in too fast. This is either due to poor technique, or more commonly, being over-weight. If you are landing with full fuel tanks you are way too heavy, thus the jet requires more speed for optimal AOA (8.1 degrees). Lighten the fuel load to half tanks and aim for 130kts, that should reduce the chance of spin out.

Here's a video made specifically for FSX Acceleration carrier landings.

-On Vimeo: 

-Download:  http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7UQJCCZA