F-18 carrier brake problems

[burner12]

I know about the spin outs that the hornet has on runways. But whenever I try to land on a carrier espicially in those TOP GUN Day traps missions once I touch down and catch a wire the entire thing spins out of control on to its right side and either crashes or splashes through the deck. This is annoying th SH**T out of me. I just got a new computer running Vista. So far I have made a few carrier landings that were fine, so i don't think it is the computer. I installed that brake fix and that didn't do anything. Has anybody else had this problem and is there a way to fix it?

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, may I ask if you are landing 'lined up'? with the centreline of the angled deck? From your description of what happens after your arrest? you seem to be lined up right heading for the island once arrested? Is that the case (by this I mean it seems you may be lined up with the ship centreline?). Maybe these are silly questions to you but I'm trying to imagine what might be the problem. Also landing at a reasonable All Up Weight using the Optimum Angle of Attack is important IMHO.

What settings do you have for the flightsim "Easy" or "Difficult" or something else? Maybe I'm clueless because I have not done any "TOP GUN" Day traps missions. What are they?

[jimi08]

http://www.topgunsim.com/tgssite/

[SpazSinbad]

jimi08, thanks - never really got into that 'TopGun' stuff. Perhaps burner12 needs to ask at that website?

[burner12]

burner12, may I ask if you are landing 'lined up'? with the centreline of the angled deck? From your description of what happens after your arrest? you seem to be lined up right heading for the island once arrested? Is that the case (by this I mean it seems you may be lined up with the ship centreline?). Maybe these are silly questions to you but I'm trying to imagine what might be the problem. Also landing at a reasonable All Up Weight using the Optimum Angle of Attack is important IMHO.

What settings do you have for the flightsim "Easy" or "Difficult" or something else? Maybe I'm clueless because I have not done any "TOP GUN" Day traps missions. What are they?

Yes I'm mainly lined up w/ the centeline.Also the crash tolerence is set to realism. And I'm mainly landing in 150-155knots sometimes 147 and I still spin out?

I went back and tested it again to see what the problem is and it's that when i hit the deck i snap the left or right side of a wire and that brings me to the center causing a spin out. But when I DIRECTLY on centerline i dont spin out. I guess this is a stupid question but going around is ok right? I sometimes @ 160knots want to force her on the deck but going around willl help in not crash right? And it seems i have to always be lined up with the centerline to not spin out, does anybody agree?

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, at the moment due to a computer crash & re-install OS I don't have FSX installed to quickly check those airspeed figures for you. You must be lined up on the centreline of the angled deck. You seem to be doing that OK.

I would guess that NOT using the AoA indexer for the Optimum Angle of Attack approach (which will give you an airspeed to fly but please use the AoA indexer) may be an issue - especially if the All Up Weight of the aircraft is high - or over the Max. AUW for landing. If you use the 'doughnut' (optimum) in the AoA indexer you will have a better approach because the IAS for your weight will be correct.

Try dialing down the realism to the middle position. As you get more practice then try increasing the realism. Heck if you are not familiar with flying the 'doughnut' then start out with easy and then increase realism as you become more proficient. To me the whole point of this excellent 'Hornet in the sim' is to fly as best one can a 'navy approach'. That is why I have complained :-) elsewhere that one has to fly practice approaches on a runway with the hook down to get the AoA indexer to work properly. It is unusable with the hook up. Getting some practice on a runway flying the AoA indexer will be good value. After all USN pilots do this before ever setting out for the deck. Probably they have to do about 100 FCLP (supervised by an LSO ashore) before they ever see the deck.

You have mentioned 'forcing' the aircraft onto the deck at a high airspeed perhaps. This would be a classic 'spotting the deck' move. [Probably in this circumstance you have really 'crashed nose down' onto the deck.] If you can fly the meatball and AoA Optimum then you will have a better chance if on the angle centreline to do an excellent (at least survivable) landing. That is what every carrier pilot aspires to achieve.

Don't be discouraged if it is difficult - it is. Practice flying 'dirty' using the indexer at a few thousand feet to get used to that. Trim is important also. The aircraft should keep OAoA when dirty at your trim setting. This trim will change slightly when you are on glideslope because less power is being used for descent. Don't fly with the trim though. Trim and then use the controls.

Fly using the carrier pilot mantra - say it out loud if necessary - "Meatball, Lineup & Optimum (AoA). You may have heard it said as "Meatball, Lineup, Airspeed" where it is always understood in the jet era that 'airspeed' refers to Optimum Angle of Attack. Just repeat that mantra over and over until touchdown. Do not look at anything else. Just those things and you will be able to fly better approaches. HTH.  Happier Landings.

[burner12]

Thanks for the info. I have been using the AoA indexer and it works fine for me. It's just maybe I'm not trimmed properly or I just always come in like I said before a shade to the right or left and that spins me because i didn't hit the wire centered. But I know that going around is ok Navy pilots do it many times just to get on deck.

So thanks for the encouragement. I hope the problem of the spin outs is just my landings maybe landing too fast and I just need more practice. its been a while since I have done carrier landings so I'm just brushing up right now. But i hope i can resolve this problem.

[MudDog]

 I am having the same thing,seems like I "think" I have a perfect pass,glideslope,centerline,AOA,ect. and the plane tips over when Im almost to a stop.
I have many hours in Janes f-18 and superhornet(years ago ) I cant seem to land this one on the deck with out having issues.
I love that San Francisco carrier mission with a ILS! Without ILS I dont have a chance.
 @burner12,What is that brake fix you mentioned?

Mud

[burner12]

I've finally found out it is mainly just not staying on centerline I'm now polishing up my rusty spots since its been a while.

Mud Dog here is the website: http://www.fsxblueangels.com/downloads.html

Download the brake fix and it'll fix the spin outs on landing strips don't know about carriers didn't really work for me on carriers. But also as a suggestion download the airbrake/spoiler fix. Fixes the nose pitch up when you extend the air brake. Helps ALOT! If you want to be a Blue Angel download the smoke fix looks alot better, and anything else you want to download. Happy landings!   

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, Sorry - missed your question about waving off. "Own Waveoffs" are OK - especially when you are learning. Better to Wave OFF than to crash. Glad to hear that you are getting some good results with better centreline lineup. Navy Flying with the AoA indexer is different, compared to an ordinary Air Force runway landing with a flare at the end. Conversely do not 'dive at the deck'. Your Hornet is not built for that punishment. :-)

Putting the nose down over the ramp will also raise your hook point increasing the chance of a bolter (missing all the wires with the hook). Pity it is not possible to fly carrier approaches without the hook being down. That takes off some of the pressure. New pilots usually do several touch and goes before ever arresting on deck.

Try landing at a lower AUW to help decrease airspeed at OAoA. Please do not use the brakes or have the park brake on when you are carrier landing. This is dangerous. For example the Skyhawk never had a 'park brake' (although the RNZAF fitted a park brake for their shore only operations with their A4K).

[SUBS17]

burner12, may I ask if you are landing 'lined up'? with the centreline of the angled deck? From your description of what happens after your arrest? you seem to be lined up right heading for the island once arrested? Is that the case (by this I mean it seems you may be lined up with the ship centreline?). Maybe these are silly questions to you but I'm trying to imagine what might be the problem. Also landing at a reasonable All Up Weight using the Optimum Angle of Attack is important IMHO.

What settings do you have for the flightsim "Easy" or "Difficult" or something else? Maybe I'm clueless because I have not done any "TOP GUN" Day traps missions. What are they?

Yes I'm mainly lined up w/ the centeline.Also the crash tolerence is set to realism. And I'm mainly landing in 150-155knots sometimes 147 and I still spin out?

I went back and tested it again to see what the problem is and it's that when i hit the deck i snap the left or right side of a wire and that brings me to the center causing a spin out. But when I DIRECTLY on centerline i dont spin out. I guess this is a stupid question but going around is ok right? I sometimes @ 160knots want to force her on the deck but going around willl help in not crash right? And it seems i have to always be lined up with the centerline to not spin out, does anybody agree?

Your problem looks as though you are too heavy which means a higher approach speed try dumping your fuel to below 5500lbs and your approach speed should be no higher than 140kts. 160knots is an insane approach speed the Hornets trap 135-140kts and superhornets at 125kts. Other thing is your AoA needs to be 8 or less the fuel dump switch is located on the left panel incase you need to find it and in order to pass 5 consecutive traps you need 5 good landings if you land heavy it can damage your bird and cause a crash on take off so don't forget to keep it on centre as well otherwise it rolls. If you use Saitek pro rudder pedals then make sure you configure them properly otherwise it causes the brakes to activate as well.

[burner12]

I guess that is the problem because Ive been practicing and it is now again spinning out even when I'm on center line. So in order to dump the fuel what screen should I look at once i've started the dump? Maybe it's just i'm terrible @ carrier landings. i hope not.

I tried dumping fuel and brought it down to 4000 and it didn't spin out as much. But then I tried just landing @ 345-400 knots and it still spun out. I guess I'm just a terrible carrier pilot. Keeping her on centerline is a challenge.


If you don't mind me asking what are your procedures for landing onboard a carrier do you always dump fuel and what basic speed and altitude do you use?

You said I might be heavy do you think that is what's causing the spin outs? Or is it just my flying?

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, I agree with sub17 to get your AUW down by dumping fuel to what he recommends.

When you start your approach lined up on the angle centreline; (when) the ship is moving away from you at a 10 degree or so angle to the right of your approach path. This means that if you do nothing you will become more and more left of the correct lineup path and more 'lined up' consquently (indirectly) with the axial (straight down the ship deck) centreline. One addition to the MLA mantra is that when you are turning base is that you MUST 'cross the wake' of the carrier to begin to be close to being lined up down the centreline of the angle deck. Project the angle deck centreline aft of the carrier you will see how it is further and further to the right of the ship's wake.

All things being equal if you start on the angle centreline you will have to make constant slight adjustments to the right to 'catch up to' and remain on the angle centreline. These slight Angle of Bank (AOB) to the right changes are unavoidable. It is never recommended to start to the right of the centreline to then drift left to be on angle centreline near touchdown. OR to start left (on the ship's wake for example to the drift to the right etc.) For one thing the actual aircraft would not be aligned fore and aft with the angle centreline; causing this problematic touchdown/arrest.

Reality means if you start on centreline you will weave slightly from one side of the centreline to the other by a small margin (hopefully) to be as close as possible on centreline with your aircraft pointed down that centreline. OR if you are an ace you will start on centreline and make constant slight adjustments to the right to stay on centreline. One way to help make minimal adjustments is to aim at a point about midway down the deck angle centreline to use that as your aim point for centreline alignment (rather than any other point on that centreline). Somewhere I have made a diagram - I'll find it and post it here. [Remember I'm not asking you to deck spot - you use only that centreline point as your centreline reference, otherwise it is back to the MLA mantra. You must use the mirror to judge approach angle - nothing else. Stay on centreline and at correct Optimum Angle of Attack - it is hard work.]

Reality of deck landing with 'meatball, lineup, airspeed' (MLA) accurately is that one aims to be on the these exact parameters at every stage; and if not then make immediate appropriate corrections to get back to the exact parameters. Don't wait. If you see a PLAT camera approach you will see these corrections (depending on actual approach of course). No carrier pilot can start a perfect approach and do nothing with the controls to stay perfectly on the correct 'MLA'. Different pilots will have slightly different techniques of power adjustment - line up adjustment and nose adjustment to keep their aircraft as close as possible to the MLA parameters. Having an OK ('no comment' [perfect] from the LSO) pass is often rare; depending on the ship, sea state and aircraft with pilot experience. Carrier flying requires constant practice, with a proportionately large amount of practice ashore at night in the FCLP pattern, before going out to do it on the carrier.

Flying FLCP at night forces the pilot to concentrate on MLA, with any other distractions hidden by a blackout of runway lights and other lights, so that he sees only the dim outlight of the carrier deck on the runway with the mirror. It is the best way to simulate carrier flying ashore. Initially FCLP is done in daytime to get the pilot adjusted but quickly it moves to night time.

Night carrier flying is always a challenge - commented on many a time in TV documentaries or films (usually nowadays about the USN). Still looking for graphic, in meantime I forgot to add that any corrections to MLA must have some anticipation built in so that when you are getting back to accurate MLA you have or are making a correction opposite so that you are on the correct MLA. For example if you are left of angle centreline you would make an appropriate correction to the right and before actually getting to the centreline you would make an appropriate correction to the left to stop the previous larger correction to the right. OK? :-) Then just to keep typing here that second correction will need a much smaller third correction to the right and then left etc. on down the glideslope. That is why another rule of carrier flying is to make corrections back to the MLA timely. Don't wait. Get back to MLA ASAP. Making corrections too gradual so that you think you plan to drift back to centreline by touchdown or have a higher rate of descent from a high start to arrive on glideslope at touchdown are all incorrect techniques. These techniques may be OK for a runway landing but carrier flying requires spot on approaches as accurate as humanly possible.

Here is a part of the parameters that an USN LSO takes notice of from his LSO manual about the HORNET: Note the parameters for deck landing and mishap tendency (bad lineup). Also another section says that NOT having a HUD is an emergency. I'm not familiar with HUD carrier flying so perhaps one needs to pay that more attention (or I need to do that anyway). :-) My problem never having flown a HUD equipped aircraft. I'm having trouble finding the diagram illustrating the line up problem due to angle deck moving with carrier forward motion. I'll find it later meantime here is another diagram from LSO NATOPS showing amongst other things a 'lined up left' viewpoint.

[burner12]

Thanks for the advice PazSinbad. You know I was flying that Top Gun day trap mission and kept flying the plane into the deck on the left but then at the end I aligned slightly to the right or kept making adjustments to the right to stay on centerline or as mucha s possible and when I landed I was off centerline (just slightly) but it didn't spin out because I landed to the right of centerline and not left. maybe that has been the problem all along I haven't made those correction for the ship in motion.

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, I'm still looking for the diagram trying to illustrate ship movement and the movement of the angled centreline. It is something not considered until it is seen and then thought about initially. To me it seems your success of not only being on angled centreline BUT that you are also have the centreline of your aircraft lined up with the centreline of the angled centreline. This is important for the rollout when arresting. Keep practising. It is fun isn't it? :-)

Try to get on the centreline from the beginning and stay there. Don't try to drift left or right to get on centreline at the end. Ensure that you go to the right of the carrier wake to be on the angle centreline as soon as you can.

Apologies for over emphasising the AoA Indexer at the expense of the HUD. Just my ignorance about how a Hornet is really used. I can recall many positive comments being made about the HUD and its usefulness - and I guess HUD usefulness in carrier approaches now. I recall one pilot saying he would land ONLY using the HUD. Others in transition from AoA Indexer to HUD said similar things. I only 'know what I know' which often is not all that much.

Because the search takes time there are other images that may help. For example this one shows a 'camera' viewpoint which likely is not the 'pilot eye' viewpoint of what it looks like close to the ramp. Remember do not deck spot in the sim either. If we imagine we are seeing the 'pilot eye' view then to my eye the ball is slightly high with lineup right. Look down the angle deck centreline - all of it - to see that even though the aircraft is slightly right it is also likely to be lined up parallel with the centreline. This is important.