Ground flickering

[Shom]

Hi,
I've noticed that when looking via wing view at the airport (gaining ~1000 ft altitude) the whole airport ground flickers.
This does not happen when looking at the airport from the cockpit.
By the way this happens in KMEM as well but does not happen in other FSDT airports I have.

Any solution for this? I am using FSX SP2.

Thanks

[virtuali]

I've noticed that when looking via wing view at the airport (gaining ~1000 ft altitude) the whole airport ground flickers. This does not happen when looking at the airport from the cockpit.

We optimized the scenery to work correctly from the cockpit. It's not guaranteed that all other views would work the same.

[Shom]

Any changes you suggest doing in order to reduce the impact of the flickering? Why is it specific for KIAH & KMEM and not happening in other airports?

[virtuali]

Why is it specific for KIAH & KMEM and not happening in other airports?

Because these airports are made more precisely, in order to reduce the normal side effects resulting from preventing the flickering in other airports, like sinking wheels, missing ground shadows, etc.

[virtualstuff]

Why is it specific for KIAH & KMEM and not happening in other airports?

Because these airports are made more precisely, in order to reduce the normal side effects resulting from preventing the flickering in other airports, like sinking wheels, missing ground shadows, etc.

Well there is something wrong here have it only with KIAH which render the scenery useless (from the cockpit perspective) with EZDOK V2 in P3Dv4 (no clipping issue tested with also default camera ;-))
It's why I hope that you will have a look again at the layering and conflict between the two, also the mesh resolution should
be supported to 1m (remark it doesn't need to support the resolution, but at least not conflict with it) and not show ground little mesh hills ;-) I want to fly from an aiport KMSP for example to KIAH and not to change the mesh setting...
I really love the scenery because I think you guys have done here great work, except for the layer conflict (maybe due to all the tunnels and the custom mesh work here ;-)).
Also a more compatible blend with FTX Global and OpenLC would be great, because it's now off to dark...
(tested in P3dv3 and v4)

Thank you for your support,

Cheers,

André

[virtuali]

Well there is something wrong here have it only with KIAH which render the scenery useless (from the cockpit perspective) with EZDOK V2 in P3Dv4 (no clipping issue tested with also default camera ;-))

I'm sorry, but we cannot support a non-standard camera addon.

It's why I hope that you will have a look again at the layering and conflict between the two, also the mesh resolution should be supported to 1m (remark it doesn't need to support the resolution, but at least not conflict with it) and not show ground little mesh hills ;-) I want to fly from an aiport KMSP for example to KIAH and not to change the mesh setting...

These are the result of rounding errors due to the sim interpolating data with no real higher resolution. They are not in the scenery, for sure.

I really love the scenery because I think you guys have done here great work, except for the layer conflict (maybe due to all the tunnels and the custom mesh work here ;-)).

No, it's because we needed to do ground polygons to be as fast as possible, in FSX. It's possible this might improve if we release a version using the native P3D SDK.

[virtualstuff]

With respect I get the feeling you are maybe looking for an escape here...

- From a technical point of view it can be done and it should be compatible with the sliders in the sim from low to high, hence every software developed for P3D should be ;-)
- As I mentioned the issue is also with the default camera not an add-on and checked of course....
- There is a conflict with mesh or indeed the ground polys...
- Again this can be solved, but are you guys willing to help out.

So in short you actually saying to your supporting customers that nothing can be done at this point, so you end up with major errors not minors I'm talking about here.
What is the solution then, because I really like the scenery and the hard work you guys have done!

Thanks for support in advance,

A disappointed customer,

André

[virtuali]

- From a technical point of view it can be done and it should be compatible with the sliders in the sim from low to high, hence every software developed for P3D should be

The scenery is totally compatible with sliders from low to high, using the default scenery. There are NO terrain "spikes" at KIAH, at 1 meter resolution, using the default scenery.

If the sim creates visual artifacts because it's interpolating data from a mesh you have added, the spikes are coming from *there* so, you should tell the developers of that mesh it's their mesh that is not "compatible with the sliders in the sim from low to high".

Of course, you wouldn't notice terrain spikes in the countryside, but only on an airport, that doesn't mean the airport is the cause.

As I mentioned the issue is also with the default camera not an add-on and checked of course....

Maybe you misunderstood your "(no clipping issue tested with also default camera"... The issue is, since I do not see any flickering with sideviews, I assumed it didn't happened with a default camera, because it doesn't happen here.

And again, maybe the cause it's the same, for the same reason you see terrain spikes caused by an addon mesh when the resolution is set too high, you might also see the effect of the sim trying to optimize performances, by reducing the mesh resolution of the terrain when the terrain is not in view, which will cause the flickerking when you switch view, because the sim is rebuilding the terrain.

- There is a conflict with mesh or indeed the ground polys...

Surely there isn't one, with the default mesh that comes with the sim.

Again this can be solved, but are you guys willing to help out.

You keep saying this so, how do you propose it could be fixed ? By providing a flat mesh with an higher resolution than the addon one you have ?

That's just wrong, and it's what has been usually called the "mesh war": different developers supplying their product with higher and higher resolution meshes, just to counteract the problems caused by each other meshes, relying on the feature of the sim that always loads the highest resolution mesh, assuming it should be the "best" on by default.

[virtualstuff]

- Again I maybe didn't express myself well enough, but I'm using default mesh supplied with P3D ;-)
- Secondly my guess is and I'm going to test it now that it has something to do with tessellation.
- The scenery isn't compatible with the slider settings above 5m ;-)

- Not every one posting here is new or doesn't have knowledge about this stuff ;-)
- As an IT guy I no how to trouble shoot this simple stuff and first going back to the basics to rule out stuff before I even post here (see my post count during the years lol)
- Hence I have development knowledge of the FS / P3D series lol

- To begin with I would offer native P3D poly stuff instead of FSX, hence I would even made my own mesh for this particular airport as a solution (not everybody has the skills to do that ;-))

- I will report back since I have tesselation at 100%

[virtuali]

- Again I maybe didn't express myself well enough, but I'm using default mesh supplied with P3D

I assumed this, both because I don't see the problem and, because having a 3rd party mesh with a resolution higher than 5 meters is the ONLY reason why you would want to set it like that in the sim.

- Secondly my guess is and I'm going to test it now that it has something to do with tessellation.

The scenery isn't compatible with the slider settings above 5m

Yes, it is, even if it's entirely useless if set them higher than 5m if you don't have a 3rd party mesh scenery with a resolution higher than that. In fact, that was precisely what I was trying to tell you: the spikes are NOT in the scenery, they are caused by rounding errors caused by the sim, which is interpolating data because it doesn't have real data.

The default scenery in P3D for the US is LOD11 (19 mt), so anything higher than that, is fake data caused by interpolation, which is slowing down your system for no reason and, higher than 5 meters, which is already a lot and should suit every 3rd party mesh out there, will create terrain spikes artifacts.

- To begin with I would offer native P3D poly stuff instead of FSX, hence I would even made my own mesh for this particular airport as a solution (not everybody has the skills to do that ;-))

Making native P3D ground polygons it's surely something we'll do, even if it's not required, since the scenery doesn't flicker right now. But we'll do it anyway, for marketing reason, even if it's slightly lower than the FSX polygons.

[virtualstuff]

I assumed this, both because I don't see the problem and, because having a 3rd party mesh with a resolution higher than 5 meters is the ONLY reason why you would want to set it like that in the sim.

Apology have been quite busy lol, but the reason is that some airports (for tunnels etc... have a higher Mesh setting) for example Flightbeam KMSP ;-)
For what it worth is, had the same issues at KMEM but that one is solved with the latest updates...
What I notice is the differences between KMEM / KCLT and KIAH is they have the following file (Elevation_Data_KMEM.bgl and Elevation_Data_KCLT.bgl)
At the AVSIM forums a lot of discussions about ground flickers at KIAH and P3D ;-)

[virtuali]

Apology have been quite busy lol, but the reason is that some airports (for tunnels etc... have a higher Mesh setting) for example Flightbeam KMSP

Then it would be up to you to decide if the eventual problem caused at KMSP by setting the resolution to 5 mt. are more or less annoying than the terrain spikes at KIAH and in every other scenery that doesn't have a mesh > 5 mt.

For what it worth is, had the same issues at KMEM but that one is solved with the latest updates...

We haven't changed anything related to the mesh in KMEM since it has been released.

At the AVSIM forums a lot of discussions about ground flickers at KIAH and P3D ;-)

It only means that other people on Avsim use it with 3rd party meshes that cause the flickering, and/or don't use the suggested Mesh setting, which cause the terrain spikes.

[virtualstuff]

Then it would be up to you to decide if the eventual problem caused at KMSP by setting the resolution to 5 mt. are more or less annoying than the terrain spikes at KIAH and in every other scenery that doesn't have a mesh > 5 mt.

No your scenery should P3Dv4 compatible with sliders from low to the highest ;-)

We haven't changed anything related to the mesh in KMEM since it has been released.

Well you changed several things and one of them fixed it ;-) http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/board,57.0.html

It only means that other people on Avsim use it with 3rd party meshes that cause the flickering, and/or don't use the suggested Mesh setting, which cause the terrain spikes.

Talking about default stuff here ;-)
It seems you aren't open minded at this one, because you don't have the issue local, that is as a dev the most strangest comment I came across in along time ;-)

[virtuali]

No your scenery should P3Dv4 compatible with sliders from low to the highest ;-)

Your explanation why it should, was because you have OTHER sceneries that "requires" a specific mesh setting so, you should see by yourself your reasoning might have been applied to the other sceneries too, which are NOT compatible with "every" slider settings, but requires a specific one.

Well you changed several things and one of them fixed it ;-)

I'll repeat it again: "We haven't changed anything related to the mesh". And KMEM ALSO requires the mesh setting to be not any higher than 5 mt., otherwise it will show terrain spikes.

Talking about default stuff here ;-)

You said yourself you "must" use 1 meter because you have other sceneries that "requires" them, now you are saying you are using the default scenery ? As I've said, several times already, if you are REALLY using a default scenery, it's no use setting the mesh resolution so high and it will create artifacts.

It seems you aren't open minded at this one, because you don't have the issue local, that is as a dev the most strangest comment I came across in along time ;-)

I cannot not obviously even START to think how to "fix" something that I cannot even replicate.

This discussion is becoming very confusing now, because the thread is supposedly about ground flickering, but then you added the terrain spikes caused by setting the mesh resolution too high.

1) The terrain spikes caused by setting the resolution too high are easily fixed by setting the resolution as WE suggest in the settings. Yes, it's a REQUIRED setting, just like the other "required" setting you said you must use on another scenery.

Just change the setting mid-flight, which doesn't obviously require a restart of the sim.

2) I cannot see any flickering anymore after the last update.