AFCAD

[Urs Wildermuth]

Sorry my ignorance, where do I put that AFCAD File?

[harpsi]

Sorry my ignorance, where do I put that AFCAD File?

Inside the scenery folder: FsDreamTeam\Zurich\scenery.

harpsi

[harpsi]

Quote from: harpsi on Today at 02:03:43 PM
Unfortunately we can not have different afcads for different times of the day, but mixing all your useful information, it tells me that:
- For landing we have 14, 16, 34 and 28. With my little improvements, all 4 are available.
- For takeoff we have 10, 28, 32 and 34. Only 32 is closed for TO, because otherwise I would have a lot of aircrafts taking off from 14 as well (both sides need to be opened as you know). Being 16 a longer runway than 16 I am sure that our inteligent aircrafts may prefer 16 to depart, but to prevent any conflicts and strange things, better to close both sides for TO. 


Correct but for the bit on runway 32. 32 is worked when 28 is landing runway or if traffic allows.


Quote
In 95 % of the time, I am quite sure that 14 and 14 are the main runways for landing and maybe 28 from a few ones, and 28 as well as 16 are the main runways for take off. With the afcad system we have another problem. The afcad shows in the runway description:


Main landing runway is indeed 14, closely followed by 28 these days and 34. As you say, the problem is with daily times. There are pretty much defined patterns for different configurations, but if we can't define that in AFCAD, then there is not much point in discussing it.

Generally:
Main configuration: 14 is main landing runway with 16 and 28 take off runways
DVO 28: 28 is main landing runway (it's got an ILS now btw) and 32 and 34 take off runways.
DVO 34: 34 is main landing runways, take offs on 32, 28 and 34.

Normally, DVO 28 is in use in the evening after 9pm local weekdays and 8pm on sat/sun, DVO 34 is in use from 6 to 7 on weekdays and from 6 to 9 on weekends. If DVO 28 does not work due to met limitations, DVO 34 is used and normal config if CAT II/III conditions prevail.


Quote
Now, they use 14,16 and 28 and they cover a large "angle" for wind settings, maybe from 80 or 90 degrees to 320 or 330 which is almost what should happen in real life (I don´t know LSZH very well, but it will be not so much different than what I am saying). Even with different angles, they are at the same time not strong, and when they don´t pass 10 knots, FS can choose the best way to solve it. For the rest of the "angle" which maybe happens quite a few times, the simulator would choose the opposite system (10, 32 and 34). Since 32 is closed for landing it would be choosen for TO and 34 for both operations. Runway 10 maybe for TO since there is an ILS at 34 and aircrafts would prefer ILS than visual approach. That´s my easiest explanation of the star system built like that and not in other way.


harpsi


I wish it was but it isn't. Landing and departure runways at ZRH are basically politically assigned. Only if limits on tailwind or visibility demand a change, then you have a chance to do it as you say. Since the introduction of the DVO (Deutsche Verordnung) which limits the traffic to 16/14, things have deteriorated from bad to worse.

Best regards
Urs

Well. Thank you very much for your information. It seems that Zurich changed a lot since 3 or 4 years ago. 

Let me see what can I do with this afcad. Maybe I can do 2 more afcads for DVO28 and DVO34 but then you will have the same problem as Amsterdam: you need to change afcad and close the simulator if you are making a flight on the transition times... But if you want it, I can try.


harpsi

[harpsi]

Hi

Ok. I found the best way with that problem of closing the sim if you want to change times. I will do another afcad with the other way arround which is the star system built like this: 10/28 + 14/32 + 16/34.

Then you have two afcads: the one I adjusted used for most part of the day, where 16 is also opened for landing as well as few landings on runway 28, maybe more if the ILS is added, and another one which will cover at the same time DVO28 + DVO34. This one will have 14/32 opened only for TO because in both DVO28 and DVO34, runway 32 is only used for TO, and the other two runways will be opened for both operations. Depending on the time, you may closed the one you want from the other two, for one operation only, with the afcad tool. Do you want that as well? I can do that and this one is much easier to do comparing with the first one. ;d

harpsi

[harpsi]

Hi

Urs, try these ones for now, More improvements are needed, but let´s finish with the star system first. You have two afcads, one of them is the "normal" one. The other afcad joins the two DVO operations: DVO28 and DVO34. To avoid making two afcads, just close the sides of the runways you want to choose between DVO34 and DVO28. When you close one runway for landing for example, you must close the other side of the runway as well for landing.

This is just for now. We can take care about parking places after.

The ILS 28 was added and I changed both ILS 34 and 16 because they were wrong coded. It is the way arround.

If you open both afcads you will see that the main difference stays in the order of the star system. That changes everything about AI behaviour times dependent.

harpsi

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[Urs Wildermuth]

Thanks a lot. Seems like we are posting at the same time 

I'll look at it, get back to you. I work with FS X at the moment so I can tell you if it works.

Best regards
Urs

[harpsi]

Yes, true. 

There is a lot of traffic at LSZH, so you just need to try 5 or 10 minutes for each one, just to organize the traffic and to see what are the expected landings and take offs. I will not try the second afcad (DVO). You can try and I am making the necessary changes.

harpsi

[Diuhh]

Correct parking Positions in Zurich are:

Swiss Int. 319,320,321 at Gate 1 (A)
Swiss Heavies 330+340 at Midfield
Swiss European Avros at Stand near Cargo by begin Rwy28 and near Gate 1.

All other Heavies at Midfield
All Star Alliance Airlines from EUROPE at gate 1
All other Star Allicances Heavies at Midfield

GATE 2(B) in NOT in Operation!!!!!! The Aircrafts are there only of space reasons. They comming with the pushback truck and waiting there for the next flight. for boarding the pushbacktruck returns them again to Midfield.

All Aircraft like:
British Airways, Finnair Clickair Belair Turkish Croatia Airlines El Al Flyniki Germanwings KLM Privatair Sunexpress are at Midfield to.

Air France is just behind Gate B.

Iberia, Ukraine, Helvetic, Hello, these Airlines are a little more behind Gate 2. (Sector C)

Thats all.

If you have more questions, going to ask it!

Regards Till

PS: I search an AFCAD with correct Runways (16,14,28) have you one?

[harpsi]

Hi

I already sent you an email.

About the P.S., yes, the two afcads above are done in that way.

Two questions:
1. What do you mean by gate 1 or 2? Is is terminal 1 or terminal 2?
2. Gate 2 is not in operation? Well, but it is not possible to simulate aircrafts which are going with the pushback truck to other locations in the airport...

harpsi

[Diuhh]

Hello

1. Yes i meant Terminal - sorry.

2. yes i know. so i would say the best is to delete these positions, because there are also times, where there are no aircrafts....
What do you mean?

Regards
Till

[mozart]

FINALLY!!!! Finally there is Zurich, one of my home airports, in FS.

harpsi,

I believe you are more patient and more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to doing the "invisible runway trick", so I let you go ahead with that. I trust you're such a good job as you did with EHAM. One of the posts above summarized very well the different constellations ("DVOs") - this does indeed call for several AFCADs, people will then need to decide which time of day they're flying into or out of ZRH.

As for the gates, ZRH is tricky, because

1. some gates can be either used by one large plane or two small planes - AFCAD must decide
2. as explained above, some longhaul planes that have a longer overlay in ZRH are towed to stands B31-39. However, pax disembarking and embarking always happens at Dock Midfield (E gates)

But I can give you some hints, about where planes are parked and how to deal with the "overlay stands".

Gate assignments first. The best is to refer to a parking map of LSZH, such as the one from Navigraph or this one http://www.swissfir.org/downloads/charts/LSZH/LSZH_GND_FreeZ.pdf:

Terminal A, stands A42-A59

Caution: these gates could be used by large planes, in which case gates number A42 and higher would be used. But: this terminal is now used exclusively for shorthaul planes, which means that gates in use are A42, A44, A02, A04, A08, A10, A03, A05, A07, A09, A49, A11, A13, A15, A17, A57. Like that, more planes can be parked. There should be airbridges for all these gates.

Airlines/planes using these gates:

• Swiss A319, A320, A321, some Avros (never more than two or three)
• Lufthansa Airbus, Boeing 737, some Avros (never more than two or three)
• Other European Star Alliance mainline jets: TAP Airbus, Austrian Airbus, SAS Boeing + MD-80s, Spanair MD-80s, Croata A319
• Sometimes the larger of the Austrian/Tyrolean Fokkers: F100, F70

Terminal B and stands C, tarmac stands B2-B5, C11-C22

As described above

• Air France/Cityjet Avros
• Iberia and the other airlines mentioned above

Tarmac stands D and G

Stands D01-D08 are used by these airlines when gates B2-B5 and C11-C22 are full. After that it is stands G.
 
Gates T

This is the maintenance area, used primarily by Swiss, but sometimes other airlines also bring their planes to Zurich. However, these planes typically wouldn't be in the FS AI traffic flightplans.

Gates W

Used by some of the larger corporate jets or planes of visiting heads of state.

Gates F - use diagonal gates numbered F70 and higher

Used by Swiss' Avros

Gates H and I use diagonal gates numbered I90 and higher

Used by

• Swiss Avros
• Lufthansa Avros and CRJs
• Helvetia's F100s
• Tyrolean/Austrian regional jets, i.e. Fokkers and Dashs
• Adria Airways CRJs
• Croatia Airlines ATR

Dock Midfield, Gates E

All other airlines

Two distinct parts here:

1. Longhaul planes typically on the Western end of the Terminal, i.e. gates E19-E47. Airlines from the US typically at the most Western of these gates
2. Shorthaul planes always on the Eastern end of the Terminal, i.e. gates E50 and above. Again, these are smaller planes, so you can use the gate numbers written in the smaller boxes of the plan. (Although I ignore what has been done by the scenery designers in terms of airbridges). BTW: Swiss uses the E gates only for longhaul, so there are almost never any Swiss A319, A 320 and A321 at the E gates.

Now, for the "layover gates" B31-B39:

As these are only used when planes aren't about to leave, I'd do the following:

1. Create "heavy" gates at B31-B39 (radius 43 meters)
2. Put them at the end of the parking list, so they get planes only after other gates have got planes
3. Code them "XXX XXX XXX XXX XXX  SIA THA MAS QTR" - this will make sure that planes of these companies only get parked here if "their" gate at Midfield Dock is taken by another plane. This will be the case when another plane leaves before these ones. This is realistic, as it implies that the SIA, THA, etc planes are still around for some time until they depart.

This usually works very well for me at other complex airports (e.g. CDG).

I am looking forward to your work!

If you want, e-mail me your AFCAD with the runways fixed, I could then take care of the gate assignments. I usually do heavy testing (taking a plane in observation mode, and then trying every 30 minutes of a typical day).

Best

Mozart

[harpsi]

1. some gates can be either used by one large plane or two small planes - AFCAD must decide

You have no choice to let the simulator choose for you. If you let two small aircrafts, then maybe a big jet will occupy the gate in the middle of the two and you have wings from both; so, better to choose before if we will have two gates or just one in that space

About the overnight, well, it is impossible to simulate that situation. You can not take the aircrafts to board passengers with a pushback truck to another terminal. I wish it could be like that but it is impossible... 

Let me study your very well done explanation. Can you write me as well? My email is harpsinuno@hotmail.com. You can send me your afcad and then I can study all these things. Tks.
 
harpsi

[harpsi]

Hi

One thing about DVO operations. The afcad is built in the good way which is with a different order of the star system. However, it is almost impossible to get 28, 32 and 34 in use, instead of 10, 14 and 16. I tried to invert the runways as well, but no way: aircrafts will always use 10, 14 and 16. I will try to set the winds heavier to see what happens. Of course I am using real weather with active sky, which means that you will almost never have strong winds...

harpsi

[harpsi]

Hi

Even before some help from users who wrote me, I created this afcad, following some indications from them. I made a lot of adjustments:
- more nodes, since traffic sometimes stopped here and there, and maybe it helps
- adjustments on the headings of some parking positions as well as parking radius
- many parked positions renumbered and added
- star system for multiple runway usage:
>>>>> Takeoff: 16 and 28
>>>>> Landing: 14, 16 and 28
- airlines added to most part of the spots
- ILS 28 added and ILS 16 and 34 corrected

One thing: forget the DVO afcad for now. I tried both ways and it is very difficult to force aircrafts to land or take off on runways 28, 32 and 34. They will choose 10, 14 and 16 with this afcad star system configuration. Is it better to have just one where you have 14, 16 and 28 in use and it works perfectly. Otherwise this is the main configuration for almost 95 % of the time.

Try this one. If you have suggestions don´t hesitate to contact me or two post here. I tried this afcad for 30 minutes and I loaded the simulator at different times for more than 50 times and it seems to work.

harpsi


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[Cimber]

Hello everybody.

harpsi  I just downloaded your AFCAD file and modified it a little bit for parking codes.

Everithing is working find. Thanks for this great AFCAD which bring more realisme to this beautiful scenery.

My "probleme" is that all heavies airplanes take-off from RWY 28 and small airplanes take RWY 16... Is-it possibe ton invert this thing

In real life we see the heavies taking-off from 16 most of the time while regionnal jets take RWY 28.

Thanks a lot for your help.