FSDreamTeam forum
General Category => Unofficial F/A-18 Acceleration Pack board => Topic started by: GOONIE on August 30, 2011, 04:43:31 pm
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Serge, hope your vacation was good. Just wanted to start a new thread to focus on vLSO alpha feedback for the F/A-18.
Here are my combined input from other posts:
Please ignore the ones you are planning to add to the beta or release versions.
vLSO
Lateral tolerances could be made much tighter. Also tighter glideslope tolerances and time in groove, could all affect grading. On Speed grading seems to be working well and is tough. Maybe have three levels of scoring, nugget, CAG, and CAG LSO 8).
The moderate LSO calls is not working, probably an alpha version thing. One idea I had was to have a trigger or button in FSX that acts as a cue for calling the ball. This would replace the vLSO saying call the ball, which is not NATOPS case 1 ops. Once you see the ball in fsx press some TBD button, call your side number, ac, fuel state, and the program would recognize the trigger (FSX button) and respond roger ball. If you didn't make the call inside .6 miles you would get a wave off, or we could have a Clara call button, but that is probably overkill. Anyways just thought to make the calls more realistic, see the ball and the make the call, not wait for the auto trigger "call the ball".
-Need more LSO grades, like OK, cut, and even an _OK_, which of course should be near impossible to get.
-Keep tracking lateral and vertical paths for the debrief windows even for a wave off. Would be nice to see wave off performance in debrief, currently the path stops tracking on w/o.
-Not a fan of the computer voice LSO calls, little fast, little slow, others. I will see if I can find some audio clips, or if you have some to replace the computer voice calls, I think it would be better
The others are ideas for later additions and cosmetics:
-option for T-45c
-option for FCLP
-option for CASE 3 approach, with approach calls,
-color in LSO grade book for score, think you showed this in an earlier version (might be later for greenie board)
-zoomed out debrief, gods eye view, to see pattern performance (downwind)
-larger font for LSO grade and score, if it could also look hand written, which would be cool (I know I am pushing it)
-add carrier profiles pictures to the debrief windows, see my earlier post for pics
Mission
- add LSO, plat, air boss cams
- mission 2 does not work for me, I continue to get waved off but I am on and on.
- an FCLP mission or a T-45 mission would be cool
- is it possible to add any support ships, usually a ship is several miles behind the carrier on guard
After trapping XX amount of times with acceptable passes, the vLSO could trigger an LSO call which says you are qual'd. If you have too many wave offs or one wires, the LSO should tell you to shut down or RTB.
How is the "time in groove" calculated? I thought 15 to 17 seconds was a good time, but I keep getting ~30 seconds, even with a tight turn into the groove (0.7NM start).
Thanks again, the alpha version is already a huge success IMHO, really enjoy it!
Capt
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CAPT...
Great thread idea.
Now you said you haven't had any of the "ship stopping" issues that a few of us others have had? If not, maybe we can meet up on Skype and trade FSX setup parameters. Maybe something (FSX LAT/LONG formats?, FSX.CFG setup?) is different that's causing the problem? It'd probly help out Serge, so let me know when you get the chance.
Later
Sludge
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CAPT...
Great thread idea.
Now you said you haven't had any of the "ship stopping" issues that a few of us others have had? If not, maybe we can meet up on Skype and trade FSX setup parameters. Maybe something (FSX LAT/LONG formats?, FSX.CFG setup?) is different that's causing the problem? It'd probly help out Serge, so let me know when you get the chance.
Later
Sludge
Sludge,
I don't have the "ship stopping" issue anymore on the mission with Javier's AC (I haven't used the other one at all, since Javier's is really the best AC) . Don't ask me why...the only thing I changed in the config was to have the Sludge 323 as the default plane when I load...just my 2-cents.
Johan
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Is this for both SP and MP, awesome.
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Johan...
Hmm, I'll have to try that along with launching from Cat 3/4. Did you use the Sludge 323 CAG or the standard Sludge 323? I know I only have the problem intermittently when I launch from those cats (3/4) as once I hook up, I see the ship "speed up" again. But no matter what Sludge Hornet I use, when I got to Cat 1/2, the carrier stops 'TIL I launch, then you can see that it starts up as the wake gradually gets longer.
I think I'll try try again FROM SCRATCH and start with the original files and then hook up to Cat 3/4 and see what happens. It might be a "window" issue, in that we have to cat from 3/4 because Serge made an "event window" there? I dont know, but I'll test sometime later and see what happens.
Later
Sludge
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Sludge,
Let me know how your testing goes and if I can help. I usually launch from CAT 4, and don't have any carrier stopping issues. Does this happen at the beginning of the mission for you?
-Capt
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Johan...
Hmm, I'll have to try that along with launching from Cat 3/4. Did you use the Sludge 323 CAG or the standard Sludge 323? I know I only have the problem intermittently when I launch from those cats (3/4) as once I hook up, I see the ship "speed up" again. But no matter what Sludge Hornet I use, when I got to Cat 1/2, the carrier stops 'TIL I launch, then you can see that it starts up as the wake gradually gets longer.
I think I'll try try again FROM SCRATCH and start with the original files and then hook up to Cat 3/4 and see what happens. It might be a "window" issue, in that we have to cat from 3/4 because Serge made an "event window" there? I dont know, but I'll test sometime later and see what happens.
Later
Sludge
Sludge,
I am in Lake Tahoe for a week, no access to my system and limited access to internet. I am using the 323 CAG for this great mission.
Thanks,
Johan
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Ok guys, I'm back and ready to continue. However, it will take me some time to get back "into the groove" :)
Capt, that was a good move to start this separate vLSO thread!
Well, let me comment on your input.
Lateral tolerances could be made much tighter. Also tighter glideslope tolerances and time in groove, could all affect grading. On Speed grading seems to be working well and is tough. Maybe have three levels of scoring, nugget, CAG, and CAG LSO - I took those tolerances from RHE-NAV-90-TR-1, no other sources were available at the moment. I agree that the tolerances could be made tighter, but to what extent? Perhaps having some 'real life' figures would be nice...
The moderate LSO calls is not working - these calls should work as per NATOPS, see the attached PDF, Spaz's courtesy. Imperative calls from this PDF correspond to the moderate vLSO level.
One idea I had was to have a trigger or button in FSX that acts as a cue for calling the ball. ...cut... Anyways just thought to make the calls more realistic, see the ball and the make the call, not wait for the auto trigger "call the ball". - I agree that this would make it more realistic, but this would also limit the pilot (and the program/missions) to having some button assigned to a certain FSX function.
-Need more LSO grades, like OK, cut, and even an _OK_ - will be done, WBD hereinafter ;)
-Keep tracking lateral and vertical paths for the debrief windows even for a wave off - up to what point? Ship's island, bow or what?...
-Not a fan of the computer voice LSO calls ... I will see if I can find some audio clips - I'm sure you'll be able to find most of those missed calls. :)
-option for T-45c - WBD
-option for FCLP - WBD
-option for CASE 3 approach, with approach calls - perhaps I'll need to study Case 3 specs
-color in LSO grade book for score, think you showed this in an earlier version (might be later for greenie board) - it's for the greenie board
-zoomed out debrief, gods eye view, to see pattern performance (downwind) - this will require big changes to the program, but I'll think about it
-larger font for LSO grade and score, if it could also look hand written, which would be cool - yes, that would be cool
-add carrier profiles pictures to the debrief windows, see my earlier post for pics - will think about it
- add LSO, plat, air boss cams - WBD
- mission 2 does not work for me, I continue to get waved off but I am on and on - will test that mission once again
- is it possible to add any support ships, usually a ship is several miles behind the carrier on guard - WBD
After trapping XX amount of times with acceptable passes, the vLSO could trigger an LSO call which says you are qual'd. If you have too many wave offs or one wires, the LSO should tell you to shut down or RTB. - it could be done
How is the "time in groove" calculated? .. - will see what's wrong with the groove time
I appreciate everyone's feedback on the vLSO, thanks guys!
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Welcome back Serge!
Thanks for the feedback, couple responses.
Lateral tolerances could be made much tighter. OK I don't have any real life figures either, so maybe we could have two settings; NATOPS and CAG LSO (could use made up tolerences that are extremely tight, not sure what that means in angular terms). Does anyone else want this? Also look at the attached pic, I am lined up left (LUL) at the start, but did not get the mark in my score.
In terms of vertical tolerences, how do they work? Attached are a couple debrief pics which show me a little low and high at the X, but I did not recieve these in my grade. Do I have to stay a little high or low for xx seconds before I get the score (LO) or (H)?
up to what point? Ship's island, bow or what?... I would say ship's ramp at least. I have also got a Wave Off after floating high over the wires. I think their is a point you can no longer wave off an aircraft, and it seems strange to recieve a wave off when I float past the fourth wire, think a bolter call would make more sense. Attached is a Wave Off debrief pic showing the track stopping before the ramp. :o (PIO!) Note these pictures are not how I normally fly, I was testing the vLSO grading ;)
Also noticed (as others) the carrier will come to a stop when launching from CAT 1, not sure what is happening here. It starts up after you launch, at least it does for me.
Looking forward to all the WBD and I will see if I can get some LSO audio files for you.
-CAPT
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Due to new thread perhaps worthwhile to repost this info from:
(3 PDF pages are same as the combined 3 page images in .GIF graphic)
OUTER-LOOP CONTROL FACTORS FOR CARRIER AIRCRAFT
Robert K. Heffley, 1 December 1990
http://robertheffleyengineering.com/docs/CV_environ/RHE_NAV_90_TR_1.pdf
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Hello Serge, welcome back. I have been enjoying your vLSO from the first day of release. It is a wonderful step up from your previous already great missions.
I would like to suggest that if you tighten up some of the tolerances (lateral and vertical), you make that as an option for the more experimented real-life pilots...I don't want to get stuck up there with so many "wave-off's" that I can never land the plane on the AC :)
Thanks for your great contributions,
Johan
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Ok, to start off I tweaked LSO logbook font - it's larger now and has nice handwritten style.
I used this one http://www.dafont.com/andrew-script.font (http://www.dafont.com/andrew-script.font) cool and free font by Andrew Vardeman. I suggest you guys to browse that huge bunch of fonts, maybe you'll find something better and we can give it a try. ;)
Capt, minus one item from your 'to do' list ;D
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Very cool Serge! ;D I think it looks pretty good, maybe try in bold, or I saw "Light up the world" and "Hand of Sean" handwritten scripts looked promising.
Attached is the handwritten LSO example.
CAPT
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fsxnavypilot-----
amazing, keep at it, thanks
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Some more handwritten fonts to evaluate
HandwrittenCrystal by Crystal Suovanen
Aji Hand by Ajith R
Seans Other Hand by Nice and Ripe Ltd
I personally would prefer Seans' :)
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Last font - third - one in that lot of three looks best IMHO.
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One idea I had was to have a trigger or button in FSX that acts as a cue for calling the ball. This would replace the vLSO saying call the ball, which is not NATOPS case 1 ops. Once you see the ball in fsx press some TBD button, call your side number, ac, fuel state, and the program would recognize the trigger (FSX button) and respond roger ball. If you didn't make the call inside .6 miles you would get a wave off, or we could have a Clara call button, but that is probably overkill. Anyways just thought to make the calls more realistic, see the ball and the make the call, not wait for the auto trigger "call the ball".
Capt,
What we really miss in FSX is the player-game interaction. Unfortunately all that we can use are few free FSX functions. But as I have already mentioned, the need to assign a (joystick or keyboard?) button to an FSX command/function would significantly limit the player and/or FSX. What if that FSX command is already assigned and used by the player's aircraft?.. So, all we can do is to simulate or mimic real life interaction to a certain extent.
Currently there's a trigger area in my test mission(s) which is located in front of 'the start' position. When you fly through this 'window', the program starts recording your approach data. Then it issues 'call the ball', after that it shows your 'ball call' with your side number, ball and fuel state. Sure, it always says BALL, never CLARA, because the program has no idea whether you actually see the ball or not. :) Finally, the program says 'roger ball' and shows a message with this text and current WOD.
It is possible to programmatically determine Case 1-3 conditions, thus disable 'call the ball' if it is Case 1. Additionally, the program could show appropriate 'CASE I(II) Approach' text message to inform the pilot when he starts another approach.
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Serge,
Looking good. I personally like the third text format "Sean", IMHO. Maybe use this text to only fill in the cells (where the LSO writes), and change the coloumn headers (titles) to normal text.
As for the FSX "call the ball" trigger I agree it would be great to make this manual (through an assigned button) and not automatic for Case I Ops, but understand it would take away a FSX command and a joystick allocation. Although, I would be willing to give up one or two buttons to call the ball or CLARA at 3/4 of a mile to trigger the vLSO "roger ball" and scoring program, and this would include the risk being waved off if I did not make this call before passing 3/4 mile. I could see the trigger working two ways; one you see the ball, hit the button on your controller (trigger's virtual ball call) then the vLSO says "roger ball" and then works as normal. The second scenario, is you hit another button for CLARA, and the vLSO would not respond roger ball, but instead give you a glideslope call (e.g. on glideslope, your high, your low, etc.).
Sometimes in the 2D HUD mode when I am rolling into the groove, the LSO says call the ball before I can actually see it (still in the turn). Does this happen to anyone? Any tips? Not a big issue, but it would be cool to control calling the ball to when I actually see it and have good info for glideslope control.
Anyways I like the way the program works for CASE I, much better than anything out there, just wanted to share this idea.
As for CASE III, I think the scoring program could remaining the same (LSO scores inside 3/4 mile), but the mission could start by sending you to a marshall stack for holding, then clear you for the approach. The pilot would be responsible for holding in marshall, then hitting the platform altitude at various stages (see attached graphic) while getting setup for the approach. Triggers could be setup in the mission for calls like "say needles, concur mode x", "dirty up", etc. Also when you get to 3/4 of mile the vLSO could work as it does now, since you normally get the "call the ball" for CASE III (I think).
-CAPT
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Guys,
just curious what's the size of your Logbook.dat file (placed along with the vLSO.exe in the same folder) and how many attempts are registered in the logbook?
Thanks
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428kb, and about 40-50 traps (hard to count,maybe a #column would help)
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One idea I had was to have a trigger or button in FSX that acts as a cue for calling the ball. This would replace the vLSO saying call the ball, which is not NATOPS case 1 ops. Once you see the ball in fsx press some TBD button, call your side number, ac, fuel state, and the program would recognize the trigger (FSX button) and respond roger ball. If you didn't make the call inside .6 miles you would get a wave off, or we could have a Clara call button, but that is probably overkill. Anyways just thought to make the calls more realistic, see the ball and the make the call, not wait for the auto trigger "call the ball".
Capt,
What we really miss in FSX is the player-game interaction. Unfortunately all that we can use are few free FSX functions. But as I have already mentioned, the need to assign a (joystick or keyboard?) button to an FSX command/function would significantly limit the player and/or FSX. What if that FSX command is already assigned and used by the player's aircraft?.. So, all we can do is to simulate or mimic real life interaction to a certain extent.
Currently there's a trigger area in my test mission(s) which is located in front of 'the start' position. When you fly through this 'window', the program starts recording your approach data. Then it issues 'call the ball', after that it shows your 'ball call' with your side number, ball and fuel state. Sure, it always says BALL, never CLARA, because the program has no idea whether you actually see the ball or not. :) Finally, the program says 'roger ball' and shows a message with this text and current WOD.
It is possible to programmatically determine Case 1-3 conditions, thus disable 'call the ball' if it is Case 1. Additionally, the program could show appropriate 'CASE I(II) Approach' text message to inform the pilot when he starts another approach.
Is there any plans to add calls for other aircraft types eg Rhino, Hornet, Hawkeye etc?
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Guys,
just curious what's the size of your Logbook.dat file (placed along with the vLSO.exe in the same folder) and how many attempts are registered in the logbook?
Thanks
Hi Serge,
Mine is just 69KB. I have just 30 attempts.
Johan
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Serge...
Sorry for the delay, I've been trying to get my "flying setup" HOTAS-on-desk arrangement back in order and haven't gotten on here in a while, since I was back from my vacation. I'll get airborne and get you some results, and a continuation of the details of my carrier "stopping" problem.
Later
Sludge
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Serge...
Got a few quick passes in before hitting the rack tonight. Didn't seem to have the "stopping" issue, as I went DIRECTLY to CAT4 from mission startup and it seemed to work continuously from start thru 3 passes.
The issues I did have were:
1. The "time in groove" still lists as: 30+ secs, when I'm counting out-loud only to 20. Not sure if this is where an "initiation" window is located?
2. On FULL LSO Talking Level, during a solid approach, the LSO says "a little low" when the ball is centered and the ICLS needles are showing me a TAD HIGH. I'll try to get some pics right as he says it. Or some FRAPS videos.
One question, what was your rationale behind the numbers for the pass? I'm only asking, as I wanted to get what your mentality is during the pass and grading. I read the .pdfs and thought you'd split IM (4700'/2=2400 rounded up) and then work towards the "front end" of IC (~1200) and AR (~300), but thats just the way I would do it. Want to hear your take on it.
Those are the only comments I have from the 3 passes tonight, I will try to fly some more tomorrow after workout and give you the logfile after I've dropped about 20 or so traps.
Later
Sludge
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2. On FULL LSO Talking Level, during a solid approach, the LSO says "a little low" when the ball is centered and the ICLS needles are showing me a TAD HIGH.
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Sludge,
I have noticed such inconsistencies too. This is mainly due to different location of the ILS of Javier's and FSX carriers. Look at the comparison picture. You can see the difference - on the Acceleration carrier FLOLS and ILS glideslope axes match, whereas on Javier's they don't. I've asked Javier for some geometry data of his carrier model and he kindly promised he would share that info, so I hope I'll be able to minimize that difference...
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Serge...
Wow, big differences. That pic really illustrates how different both carriers "ball"/glideslope indications (IFLOLS gauge) are and how they get worse "in close" into the wires. Do you have a solution? Are you gonna change your "zones" for each particular carrier (accel default vs. Javier) type?
Later
Sludge
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Serge,
It looks like you’re in the object placement tool when taking those pics, and I think that requires you to be pointing in the direction you’re looking. You might very well have taken this into account, but just remember that the nose of the aircraft on final is pointed well above the glidepath, 8.1 degrees in the Hornet as you well know. Hence, a jet might be on glideslope according to the ICLS that the Stand-Alone Meatball is based on, but because he is nose low (lowering the pilot’s eye) the pilot would see a lower ball on the IFLOLS on the ship. Much the same, the pilot might be a little high on the ICLS and because he is pointed right at the landing area see a center ball on the ship, as you do with Javier’s carrier. I kind of take the Acceleration carrier for what its worth, but after reading what went into Javier’s carrier, I was thoroughly impressed. However, I don’t doubt your abilities one bit, and if you already took that into account, please disregard.
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Micro,
that's correct, I use the OPT to do various things when developing missions etc. This way I have discovered this difference between the two carriers. When 'approaching' to the Acceleration carrier along its optical glidepath, I have steady meatballs both on the FLOLS and the IFLOLS gauge (which uses ILS data). But when approaching to Javier's carrier along its optical glidepath, I have the IFLOLS meatball moving up (the closer to the boat the higher it goes), which makes me believe that the ILS source point and the FLOLS focus of lens do not coincide. That's why I asked Javier for some additional info on his model...
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One question, what was your rationale behind the numbers for the pass? I'm only asking, as I wanted to get what your mentality is during the pass and grading. I read the .pdfs and thought you'd split IM (4700'/2=2400 rounded up) and then work towards the "front end" of IC (~1200) and AR (~300), but thats just the way I would do it. Want to hear your take on it.
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Sludge,
I use the RHE_NAV_90_TR_1.pdf by Robert K. Heffley and here are some pictures taken from his work to explain my numbers :)
You can see that the touchdown point is about 230' from the ramp.
Also, in the Table 2-1 Heffley specifies some other numbers:
at the ramp AR 100-600 ft from touchdown
in close IC 600-2000 ft from touchdown
in the middle IM 2000-4000 ft from touchdown
at the start X 4000-5000 ft (~3/4 nm —beginning final leg)
I assume AR is 600' from the touchdown point (or some 400' aft of the ramp). So my numbers are:
AR - 600' (400')
IC - 1500' (1300')
IM - 3100' (2900')
BC - 4550' (4350')
X - 5130' (4930') but currently X is at 4700', just to keep 1600' stepping ;D
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Serge, I gotcha. I was just referreing to the pilots’ “eye”. Like in this first pic, I’m on glideslope according to the ICLS and since I’m on speed both “balls’ show center.
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r275/microbrewst/1.jpg)
But, if I simply rotate around the aircraft’s lateral axis and point the nose between the 2 and 3 wires, I have lowered the pilots “eye”. Now I’m still on glideslope as per the ICLS, but my pilot’s eye is too low, thus showing a slightly low ball on the ship’s IFLOLS.
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r275/microbrewst/2.jpg)
Again, my apologies if we are having a communications failure.
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Serge, Sludge just explained to me what your getting at. Disregard my posts. Sorry bud.
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Micro,
no problem! :)
Ok, here's another picture showing my current ranges layout.
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Serge...
OK, that makes complete sense. Just wanted find out what you were thinking.
And now I'm looking forward to what Javier says, as to why (his) carrier is different from the Accel carrier.
Later
Sludge
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Guys,
I've hastened to declare the Acceleration carrier free of ILS/FLOLS inconsistencies. When making comparisons I left NAV1 radio tuned to 112.0 (Javier's ILS) instead of tuning it to 111.0 (the Acceleration's ILS). As I said it before, the IFLOLS xml gauge uses ILS data, otherwise it shows rock steady ball. My apologies...
Here's another comparison picture so you can see that both carriers have almost the same ILS positions. Maybe this is the case in real life, I don't know...
Anyway, I still would like to know the exact position of the FLOLS focus. Until that I'll keep using trial-and-error method ;)
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Thanks Serge. I really like the profile shots of the carrier in your post from Heffley's doc (side and top views), could be nice additions to the vLSO debrief window. ;)
Also in your FSX pictures of Javier's carrier, it looks like there is only two wires across the deck (also thicker). Is this an artifact of taken the picture in OPT? Or do you have a Top Secret version of Javier's carrier with working arrestment wires? :o
-Capt
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Also in your FSX pictures of Javier's carrier, it looks like there is only two wires across the deck (also thicker). Is this an artifact of taken the picture in OPT? Or do you have a Top Secret version of Javier's carrier with working arrestment wires?
I'm quite sure that it's just an irrelevant artifact, caused by a Z-fighting issue when rendering on Serge's computer.
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I'm quite sure that it's just an irrelevant artifact, caused by a Z-fighting issue when rendering on Serge's computer.
Dang Z-Fighting! >:(
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Which glideslope is the approach graded on, ILS or IFLOLS?
Mike
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The vLSO grades the approach on FLOLS indeed.
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Well, that explains why my approaches were better when I turned off the ILS. LOL
Mike
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Mike,
That's right. To prove that I'll post another series of screengrabs. So far this is my best attempt of making FLOLS and vLSO coaxial... As you can see, they match pretty well - glideslope errors are within 0.3 degree margin, which is Ok. At the start the error was just +0.08 which could be explained by my eyes (in)accuracy, and over the ramp it was still under 0.3... I think such an approach could be graded as an OK pass, eh?.. 8)
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Serge,
Looks like you have fixed time in groove? Also noticed your Glideslope is red all the way down which means you were a little fast all the way down, correct? Was this the only way to get such a consistent glideslope or am I reading this wrong?
Thanks for this amazing add on ,it has given new life to carrier ops....really miss the sessions with Sludge, Paco, Orion, Ben,Neutrino, Don and the rest of the SF multiplayer sessions crew.
Sonofabeech
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....really miss the sessions with Sludge, Paco, Orion, Ben,Neutrino, Don and the rest of the SF multiplayer sessions crew.
Totally agree Sonofabeech. Maybe with fall and winter coming we can start the MP session again. Also the vLSO is planned to have an export feature for a virtual Greenie Board, which will be nice competition among the virtual flyers ;)
-Capt
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Sonofa...
really miss the sessions with Sludge, Paco, Orion, Ben,Neutrino, Don and the rest of the SF multiplayer sessions crew.
Times TWO buddy!! Hopefully we can make those happen again after the year hiatus.
CAPT...
Also the vLSO is planned to have an export feature for a virtual Greenie Board, which will be nice competition among the virtual flyers
Right on. Get some good landing competition going, then see who can bring their vLSO grades to the HARDKNOCKS world of multiplayer grading. Cant wait to get some sessions up and running with the old crew, just like Simon was talking about...
Serge...
Looks like you have fixed time in groove?
Music to my ears. Cant wait to mess around with the newest version. Also, are you gonna have "launch/activations zones" for the other cats as well? So we can do launches from CATS 1/2 while doing sustained carrier patterns. Its my opinion that the boat was "stopping" cause the Hornets werent starting and using CAT 4. Hopefully, we can get this fixed, so we can CAT anywhere and the boat will keep going...
Later
Sludge
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Mike...
Well, that explains why my approaches were better when I turned off the ILS.
You should NEVER fly a pass using ICLS unless Case III (night, bad weather) and thats still getting you to the ball... otherwise you'll just be chasing the needle all the way down. In FSX, since we control the environment and are using a Case I (day, VFR, full pattern landings) for the vLSO, I would say ONLY use the ICLS glideslope needle to judge your 90 position and 45 position doing the pattern, looking for g/s needle on-glide make adjustments to get on-glide at both. Then, past the 45 (crossing the wake) and continuing left turn to final bearing, transition to using the FLOLS as soon as possible, even before the Ball Call.
Later
Sludge
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Hey Sludge
Don't want to start any false rumours around here as far as the time in groove is concerned ...the reason I said it had possibly been fixed was because of the photo above showing the vLSO glideslope page shows his pass as being 12,7 seconds in the groove. I guess only Serge can answer that question.
Is there any way of getting the vLSO to work in a multiplayer setup? Im guessing if it can be done that someone will have to write another multiplayer mission? Or do we go back to LSO Sludge with his dreaded log book ;D You guys think the vLSO is tough ....LSO Sludge will make grown men cry ;D
Whenever you guys are ready for a session drop me a message ..it's been far too long since I last saw your ugly mugs :P
Sonofabeech is in the slot LOL
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Beech...
No worries, I think Serge took our criticisms and is working with them. Thats all we can ask. I'm gonna do some more passes tonight and see how I stack-up in the pattern and try to get my FRAPS running to record it.
You guys think the vLSO is tough ....LSO Sludge will make grown men cry
Man, now I feel like the LSO version of the "wicked witch of the West". Haha. I think the good news is that once people get comfortable with the vLSO and can bring that to the multiplayer sessions, they should be just fine with my grading. Of course ALL BETS ARE OFF once you get NEUTRINO'd, but its all good if we can get some sessions started again and get people out there.
Later
Sludge
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Guys,
These pictures were taken not during actual approaches but in the OPT mode. I use this OPT (Object Placement Tool) when working on the vLSO project and missions. This powerful tool allows me to place and move the plane around the scene as I want it, so I don't need to fly the pattern every time I need to check something. I just move the plane into required position and see how the vLSO registers and evaluates its position... So what you see is not exactly what you think :)
However I do fly my missions. But I still can't reproduce the groove time issue, I constantly get 18..26 sec. Will keep working on this issue...
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Sludge!! ...wicked "witch" of the west you cross dressing these days ? thats a scary thought ... I remember the multi sessions..
Sonofabeech : "Abeam ..hook down"
Sludge: "Do you want the friendly LSO or the real deal"
Sonofabeech " the real deal"
Sludge" Right then ...."
Sonofabeech" OH CRAP!! :o
Sludge .... WAVE OFF WAVE OFF ... ;D
Serge thanks for the feedback ..appreciate all the time you have put into this project!
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Also, are you gonna have "launch/activations zones" for the other cats as well? So we can do launches from CATS 1/2 while doing sustained carrier patterns. Its my opinion that the boat was "stopping" cause the Hornets werent starting and using CAT 4. Hopefully, we can get this fixed, so we can CAT anywhere and the boat will keep going...
Sludge,
looks like the problem caused by this xml tag set to True:
<YieldToUser>True</YieldToUser>
Just open in an editor each mission's xml file, find and set the tag to False (easy to find, it's the only <YieldToUser> tag within the xml code) and re-fly the two missions again. There should be no more stopping.
Here's my new question.
Currently my missions are set for the F18, and ideal abeam position is 1.3 nm from the touchdown point and abeam area margin is 0.4 nm, so that when the plane is 1.7 nm or farther from the ship, it gets TWA; when the plane is 0.9 nm or closer, it gets TCA. But what if you fly the T45 or F14 or any other carrier capable plane? Will this 'hardcoded' into missions abeam position be suitable for them? NAVAIR 00-80T-105 specifies abeam numbers without referencing to any particular aircraft (see the attached picture). On the other hand I recall that abeam position for the T45 is 0.9-1.1 nm (don't have any Goshawk NATOPS in handy to check that). So, flying correct T45 pattern would result in wrong LSO reaction, right? :)
What I want to do is to get rid of these areas and let the vLSO judge an approach according to aircraft type. This will a) give the program more flexibility and b) allow the user to fly ANY carrier mission with ANY carrier capable planes...
Here's the list of such planes - F/A-18A (Acceleration), F/A-18D (Captain Sim), T-45C and F-14D (both Dino's). Are there any other flyable planes? What are their VFR approach numbers?
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Hornet F/A-18A/B/C/D NATOPS Carrier Circuit Diagram attached. It states 1.25 to 1.5NM abeam. I'll post the Goshawk T-45C next which states 0.75 to 1 NM abeam. I'm guessing that the CV NATOPS carrier circuit diagram is a general one for jet aircraft. Individual NATOPS would be the aircraft guide IMHO. The low altitude 'dirty' turning performance difference between Goshawk & Hornet is significant. Having a very similar angle of bank in the base turn would be the guide I reckon. Hence different abeam distances for similar bank angle.
______________________________________
The CNATRA T-45C guide online has this FCLP Abeam position:
http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-1238/P-12380021.htm
"Abeam position a.Verify proper distance abeam (.9-1.1 nm laterally)"
However bear in mind that the runway is not moving with an angled deck (making for a wider turn - less angle of bank - to intercept angle deck centreline). Some info on FCLP here on this point: http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-1238/P-12380022.htm
Flying a carrier pattern is a matter of adjusting constantly as is the case with flying the ball, being as close to perfection as is humanly possible. :D It seems today that flying part of the day FCLP T-45C circuit on instruments is OK, I guess good training for night FCLP also. "Scan from the 180 to the 90 is primarily an instrument scan."
_____________________
T-45C at carrier:
http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-1238/index.htm
http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-1238/P-12380055.htm
"COMMON ERROR: ...NOT holding BRC heading...
C. Approach turn 9.7.2.3.5
1. Abeam position. Lead should set proper distance abeam (.9 to 1.1 nm)
2. Turn abeam LSO platform 27-30 degrees AOB. At the round down establish 200-300 fpm descent
3. 90-degree position: 450 ft AGL
4. 45-degree position: 325-375 ft AGL
5. Cross wake at 300-350 ft AGL, 500 fpm descent
6. Do not look for ball early"
______________
“8.13 CARRIER LANDING [T-45C NATOPS verbatim]
Enter the carrier landing pattern (Figure 8-2 [seen attached here]) with the hook down. Make a level break from a course parallel to the BRC, close aboard the starboard side of the ship. Below 200 KIAS lower the gear and flaps/slats. Descend to 600 feet when established downwind. Complete the landing checklist and cross-check AOA and airspeed prior to the 180 degree position.
With a 25 knot wind over the deck begin the 180 degree turn to the final approach when approximately abeam the LSO platform. When the meatball is expected to be acquired, transmit call sign, Goshawk, Ball or Clara and fuel state (nearest 100 pounds). Fly the aircraft at optimum angle of attack from the 180 degree position to touchdown.”
Pretty simple really. ;D I guess all this advice can be confusing for sure and here the T-45C advice from various sources is added to supplement the F/A-18 advice given already on this thread and in other threads.
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Spaz,
Thanks for the info! I will use 1.25-1.5 NM for the F18 and 0.9-1.1 NM for the T45. I will also add 0.3-0.5 NM for 'too wide' and 'too close' areas.
I'm changing my program so that flying downwind through the abeam area (within these boundaries) with hook and gears down will tell the vLSO that the pilot starts a Case I/II approach.
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Hi Serge,
You asked if
"Here's the list of such planes - F/A-18A (Acceleration), F/A-18D (Captain Sim), T-45C and F-14D (both Dino's). Are there any other flyable planes? What are their VFR approach numbers?"
There is A-6, EA-6B, A-7 (Razbam), F/A-18E (VRS), F/A-18E-F (Team FSKBT), Rafale M (One by rollus another one by Thor), (Royale French Navy) Etendard
Also there is a lot of WWii aiplanes and carrier 60-70-80s nice one around.
For Carriers there is the Foch, Clemenceau and Ark Royal.
Dont get me wrong not asking you to do all of them i am just answering your question :)
Let
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fsxnp, if more NATOPS carrier circuit information is needed for your vLSO project for other aircraft as indicated by 'Letourn' then please say what is required. I have the Super Hornet (already posted on another thread somewhere I think but can be reposted) and the F-14D model NATOPS info.
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Spaz,
I need additional info on these planes:
Rhino, Tomcat, Intruder/Prowler, Skyhawk and maybe Rafale and Etendard.
Are there any other flyable carrier modern era airplanes? S-3 Viking, E-2 Hawkeye for example?...
Letourn,
Thank you for your suggestions, however I don't plan to support S.Parouty's carriers (mainly because their OLS has at least twice lower precision than the FLOLS) or old time carriers and planes (most of them don't have OLS at all).
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There is a S-3 Viking (Iris FS9 upgrade to FSX with tanker option - Freeware) and E-2C Hawkeye (Abacus)
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F-14D NATOPS relevant Carrier Circuit and FCLP info/advice in 2 PDFs & .GIF graphics.
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On the subject of carriers, I've managed to get ILS, IFLOLS, TCAN and LSO working on the Ark Royal IV (my favourite) and others.
Basically you need the gauges from the Royale French Navy Fouga_Zephyr_FSX_v2.0.zip (Etendard uses a VC switch for LSO).
The Ark Royal seems quite fussy. I changed it's frequency in the file Carrier.xml to 110.00 (Clemenceau_1995 to 112.00) although I first had it working on 112.5. What works for me is to set NAV2 to 110, switch on the TCAN gauge, wait for the range and bearing to show, then quickly switch NAV2 to 111.00 then NAV1 to 111.00 also. The ILS should immediately show up in the HUD. You guys may be able to work out a more elegant way of doing this.
I haven't got a definitive list of exactly which gauges are required, I suggest adding the sludge HUD to the Zephyr first, then install the Etendard which has later file versions (which overwrite the Zephyr's). You can then copy the gauges over to any aircraft.
This line is required in the VC section for the LSO to work;
gauge00=dsd_xml_sound3!dsd_xml_sound3, 5, 0, 5, 5,.\gauges\dsd_sonsCM175.ini
I don't know how to add additional carriers to Carrier.xml, but there's a few in there. Also it looks possible to change the carriers geometry if need be. Incidentally IFLOLS seems to be limited to use 111.00 or 112.00, which is why I use these frequencies.
vLSO is looking good, ideally I'd like to be able to use it without needing to use a mission.
Cheers.
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Super Hornet F/A-18E/F NATOPS Carrier Approach and FCLP procedures, 1 combined PDF and 2 GIF graphics from NATOPS. Usually in all instances of USN aircraft NATOPS the carrier approach procedures refer in part to the FCLP/Land based procedures.
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Best Quality Text Searchable A-4E/F/G Skyhawk NATOPS:
http://www.adf-history.com/2011files/A4G_NATOPS_Text_Searchable.pdf (138Mbs)
Attached are the two Land and Carrier Circuit NATOPS .GIF diagrams and a PDF with relevant information for both.
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Ok, guys
Here's another WIP update, this time it's an upcoming vLSO beta version. I have completely reworked data acquisition and evaluation system, got rid of triggers and areas in the missions, added some user interface eyecandies, etc....
Now, going down the wish list of Capt... ;)
-Keep tracking lateral and vertical paths for the debrief windows even for a wave off. Would be nice to see wave off performance in debrief, currently the path stops tracking on w/o. - DONE (see the images attached)
-option for T-45c - DONE (some other aircraft are also supported)
-larger font for LSO grade and score, if it could also look hand written.. - DONE (see the images attached)
-add carrier profiles pictures to the debrief windows... - NOT SURE that this will look good. The distance axes are squeezed 5 times for better presentation of the glideslope and lineup deviations, so a carrier profile squeezed 5 times would look ugly... ???
- add LSO, plat, air boss cams - DONE (for my missions)
- is it possible to add any support ships, usually a ship is several miles behind the carrier on guard - now it is possible to use any missions, provided there is a carrier (either the Acceleration or Javier's); say, TGS Day Traps mission which has a whole nicely placed strike group... If I have time, I'll try to add some vessels around the boat.
How is the "time in groove" calculated? - looks like it's now FIXED (see the images attached) :)
I hope I'll be able to upload a beta version within the next few days...
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Awesome news Serge!!! ;D Can't wait for the new release.
Can you talk some more about the data acquisition and evaluation system changes? Are there more grades available (OK, No Grade, Fair, Cut)? To get a time of groove time of 12-18 seconds, will the program still work? What I mean is to achieve this time you have to fly a tight pattern, and you might not hit the vLSO trigger for ball call, what do you think?
Understand the issues with adding a carrier profile, just thought it could be eye candy for the debrief, did you see the example pictures I posted for this concept in an earlier post?
Finally, what is the status for uploading grades to a Greenie Board? Do we need a site or a server to do this? I guess it is not necessary now, just curious what it would take to make this feature work.
Thanks again for all your hard work, this is a great addition to FSX carrier flying!
-CAPT
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great, shocking, looking forward to the beta
thanks for the work
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An idea for modders you can get Voice activated software so some aspects of carriers interaction for pilots with the LSO could be a possiblity. eg they call in their weight if I recall to the LSO who then sets it on the meatball or is it a setting for the wires? Anyway if you use voice activated software in the mission it could have that feature. Either that or a drop down menu. ideas anyone. ;)
Great work BTW.
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Thanks, guys :)
Can you talk some more about the data acquisition and evaluation system changes? Are there more grades available (OK, No Grade, Fair, Cut)?
Well, previously the program sampled approach data every 50 ft and stored it in a fixed size table. Now it performs time-based sampling (four times per second) and store data in a variable length table, which gives me much more flexibility. If during beta testing this sampling rate appears insufficient, we'll try some other settings.
For an approach evaluation I will use the root mean square (or RMS) method, it's 'a statistical measure of the magnitude of a varying quantity'. 8) In our case these varying quantities are the glideslope and lineup deviations. However, do not expect full range of LSO grades in the initial beta release, this will take some time to tweak the program. Perhaps I will also ask you guys to share your logbook files - the more actual approach information the better... ;D
To get a time of groove time of 12-18 seconds, will the program still work? What I mean is to achieve this time you have to fly a tight pattern, and you might not hit the vLSO trigger for ball call, what do you think?
I see. If they do it in real life, why not to do it in FSX? All we need is to somehow tell the program we're on a tight pattern, or, in other words, tell the vLSO 'I call the ball right here'. CAPT, in the first message you were talking about a button acting as a cue for the ball call. It's possible to make the program to response to certain FSX commands/buttons. Basically it looks like this - you assign a joy/keyboard button to an FSX command, tell the vLSO that this command is used for 'Ball' call and check 'Manual ball call' mark. From this moment the vLSO will not call the ball for you anymore, it will closely monitor your approach only from the moment you press that key/button. The same applied for 'Clara' call. I will try to add this feature to the next beta release.
It is also possible to use voice activated software, as SUBS17 proposed. For example, there's VAC (http://www.dwvac.com/ (http://www.dwvac.com/)), which binds your words to FSX commands. I suppose it could well be used with the vLSO too...
Understand the issues with adding a carrier profile, just thought it could be eye candy for the debrief, did you see the example pictures I posted for this concept in an earlier post?
Yes, I did, but transformed profiles would look bad, real bad. Look at this picture, these profiles are scaled just 50%, not 20% as they should...
Finally, what is the status for uploading grades to a Greenie Board? Do we need a site or a server to do this? I guess it is not necessary now, just curious what it would take to make this feature work.
Yes, for a Greenie Board we will need a site which provides an SQL server (for storing data) and capable to run PHP5 scripts. I have some experience in MySQL and PHP5.
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Finally, what is the status for uploading grades to a Greenie Board? Do we need a site or a server to do this? I guess it is not necessary now, just curious what it would take to make this feature work.
Yes, for a Greenie Board we will need a site which provides an SQL server (for storing data) and capable to run PHP5 scripts. I have some experience in MySQL and PHP5.
If Sludge doesn't mind you can use SludgeHornet.com's server.
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Raz and Serge...
Of course you can use SH.com, especially since I have plenty of space and pay for the domain. As a matter of fact, its already got a "greenie board" forum and space setup, so just let me know what you need Serge and once you get done with the changes for the Beta version, we can make that happen.
Later
Sludge
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Great news on the Greenie Board, thanks Sludge! Looking forward to using it.
Serge, I have been trying to fly my patterns tighter, rolling into the groove ~ 3/4 mile to shorten my groove time like Mike said his son told him to do. Note this is harder than I thought. It would be great to have a manual "ball call" button to trigger the vLSO in later versions of the program, giving people the option to assign a button, or keep the automated trigger.
Understand on the distortion of the graphic, just thought it would look nice. Really like the W/O feature.
Looking forward to the additional scores being available in later versions, sounds like you are using some good methods for analyzing the data.
Finally, the mission has the carrier setup around Hawaii, was this done for looks or based on where the USN runs carrier quals tracks? Would it be possible to have another mission with a carrier off the coast of Oceana or California? Does anyone know where these types of carrier tracks normally run (real world) for carrier quals?
-CAPT
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CAPT...
Rolling into the groove is quite hard to do ON TIME. I'm having trouble myself til I changed a little thing. Even though we are still HIGH WoD, IF you have VooDoo's carrier wake FIX, I'd advise starting your 180 turn just as you are hitting the end of the trail, VICE starting it directly ABEAM of the LSO Platform. You'll start to see the ROUNDDOWN of the carrier deck, and should be at 1.3 TCN. If you hold a solid 27-30 AoB turn, you should hold 1.3 all the way around til crossing the wake... then you know what to do from there. I'll try to get some SCREEN CAPS, so others here can see what I'm talking about and shoot for that...
I've been experimenting with an .XML that will enable AUTO-RUDDER COORDINATION (IF it isnt already enabled) once you get into a landing configuration. I need everyone's input here. While flying this mission, enable AutoRudder (default keyboard should be CTRL-SHIFT-U) and let me know if its EASIER or HARDER to fly the pattern. This will let me know IF I need to continue and integrate the .XML or just leave this entirely up to the flyer to enable themselves.
Also, yes... carriers usually try to get close to all the coastal bases including Miramar (even though its now a Jarhead airstation... yes, I can say that, I'm still a Jarhead at heart); the USN tries to lump all its carrier quals in one place, since moving a carrier around is quite expensive. As you may or may not know, I was aboard the GW when the wire broke and NatGeo TV was filming... we were off the carolinas and had a mix of both T-45s and F-18s flying out of NAS Oceana, qualling for that week.
I think the option for a ball call button would be awesome. Can probly read some variable that nobody uses and then we can assign that to our GUNS trigger. That way, it can be a natural, easy thing to get used to as we roll out, instead of using a keyboard command.
One last thing, I told everyone I was working on my FLIGHT CHAIR. ITS DONE. Its a straight up POOR MAN's flight chair, that has holders for my stick (in the slightly left-twisted F-18 setup) and throttle on the side armrest. I'll get some pictures up on another thread, when I get them downloaded.
Later
Sludge
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CAPT,
Without having TrackIR or a multiple monitor setup I am finding it exceedingly difficult to fly a pattern with a less than 20 second TIG. I basically do what Sludge described but stumbled on it a different way. Once established on a 1.3 - 1.4 downwind abeam I glance to the left. Once I can see the stern I pan the view back to center. Once centered I start the turn. I bet my patterns and Sludges are pretty close. :)
Regarding having the carrier somewhere off the coast of San Diego, that was where my son did his carrier quals last Spring. He was on the Stennis back at the end of March when the 18 had the engine explosion on the cat. No, he wasn't the pilot but he was on deck at the time getting his jet ready to go. I'm not so sure he knows exactly where they were at the time. He boarded the Stennis at North Island. The news reports said "100 miles off the coast" which would put them somewhere in the middle of W-291, which makes sense. If the mission can be modified to put a carrier there then it would be conceivable that the mission could start on the ground at Miramar and fly out to the carrier. You could fly the break, do a few passes, then fly back to Miramar.
Mike
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On a related note when the aircraft lands on the deck what do the ground crew do? Just wondering do they guide the jet to a cat or parking spot etc. As I just saw this:
I remember the DIs Superhornet days with ground crew guiding me to the cat in the Superhornet was quite cool. Its impressive to see this animation.
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On a related note when the aircraft lands on the deck what do the ground crew do? Just wondering do they guide the jet to a cat or parking spot etc.
All aircraft movement on the flight deck and hanger deck is under the control of the Aircraft Directors, "Yellow Shirts", through a complex series of hand signals. This link on Wiki gives a pretty good overview.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_United_States_Navy_carrier_air_operations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_United_States_Navy_carrier_air_operations)
Mike
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Sludge and Mike,
Thanks for the input, I agree it is really difficult to make that groove time in FSX with view and sim limitations (screen size, etc). If you can post pictures detailing the 180 to the groove Sludge that would helpful. Also I want to see this flight chair you've built. 8) I am up for trying the rudder mod, see if it helps, does it just coordinate rudder for your turn? Is it different then the FSX auto-rudder feature?
As for ship placement, Oceana or Miramar would be great, but I will leave it up to Serge. I don't want it to detract from other developments, because once you are in the groove it really doesn't matter where you are, unless you need to bingo/divert ;)
Subs17, I saw the PMDG ground crew video, that would be awesome if Javier included this in his next carrier release. Looks like he already started with the shooter animation on the CATs. I thought it would be cool to have one guy animated after you trap, giving you the hook up signal, then taxi clear of the landing area, then directions to a CAT. I am sure it is possible, but I won't hold my breath.
-CAPT
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Mike...
Have you been flying FSX and putting your son's advice to use? How much difference have you noticed, especially here with Serge's vLSO mission?
CAPT...
Yeah, I'll go flying and get some pictures tonight, so that we can have an idea of what a decent 180 point looks like and when to start that 27-30 AoB turn. Also, its not really a big time mod its just an XML that asks if your AUTO-RUDDER (fsx feature) is enabled and if SO, it does NOTHING. If not, it enables it when in a landing configuration. Not very hard to do, other than making sure the landing parameters dont interfere into other flight regimes (ie. slow flight, gear/flaps down) that are similar to the basic landing configuration.
Later
Sludge
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Mike...
Have you been flying FSX and putting your son's advice to use? How much difference have you noticed, especially here with Serge's vLSO mission?
Much to my wife's dismay, I have been flying a lot since I got back from San Diego. LOL
Before my sim time my boarding rate using vLSO was 44% (47/108). Since then my boarding rate has actually gone down a bit to 39% (21/54) but I'm catching more 2 and 3 wires. I think part of this is because I have been trying to fly much tighter patterns. I have one bad habit I need to break. I'm transitioning away from the ball and to the landing area way to early. Actually, I don't think I'm supposed to be transitioning to the landing area at all but old habits are hard to break. What this causes me to do is dump it at the ramp. My glideslope graphs aren't too bad until I hit the AR mark and then they take a nosedive.
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MikeB54 said: "...I have one bad habit I need to break. I'm transitioning away from the ball and to the landing area way to early. Actually, I don't think I'm supposed to be transitioning to the landing area at all but old habits are hard to break. What this causes me to do dump it at the ramp...." Mike keep in mind I'm not criticising because you know what you are doing and how to correct it. My comment is that this is a classic example of 'deck spotting'. Ask your son about this and what the LSOs might do to anyone thought to be so doing. ;D [LSOs say that the arrest / touchdown should be a surprise.]
A very long time ago - in fact 40 years - I sort of 'deck spotted' 'at the start' in an A4G only to get a wide view of HMAS Melbourne gyrating in the quarter swell. Bloody Hell! I went straight back to 'meatball, lineup and airspeed (opt. AoA)' and NEVER looked back (meaning I did not do that again). Also probably about the same time I once looked ahead just before arrest to think (I'm going to miss the lot) but no - probably caught a one wire as you describe. NEVER again also on that score.... [This is where the eye height to hook tip (main wheels to hook tip) distance can be very confusing - remember it is the hook that catches the wire and not the main wheels as might have become the custom ashore.]
It is really important to have the recommended straightaway time of 15-18 seconds because it will concentrate the mind and reduce chances of errors (remember one can also practice FLCP beforehand - going to the FSX carrier without any FCLP is not a good idea if a newbie).
For example early on the A4G used a lower circuit height (probably a throwback to earlier Sea Venom times). We did a level base turn until finding the ball in the mirror at about just after halfway around (remember this is a mirror which probably allowed this phenomena) so we flew the ball a lot longer than just on the straightaway or just before. Short and sweet. Later the circuit height was adjusted to NATOPS I'm told.
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Mike...
Fair enough, I know plenty of FSX flyers that do just the same. Just ask Raz how much he fought "dumping it at the ramp", as he would fly a great profile but would just dump the throttle AR and boom, one wire. However, I dont think his was deck spotting, it was more a FALSE "burble anticipation" as he would fly a really good pass up to that point and would almost CHOP the throttles.
Personally, I'm more of a "ball crester" and moreso now that you came back with that bit of "gouge" from your son. The only time I "look at the deck" is for my line ups at the START and IM. Once I'm IC, I focus MOSTLY on the ball, a glance or two at the Indexer, and no lineup, as I've been working that the whole pass... once I get IC to AR, I should be on my final bearing and lined up, IF I did my job. Mostly, my problem has been getting a good start without OVERCORRECTING... As I'm coming around, I'm either too high, or crossing far too right of lineup. So I've been trying to keep my turn in and not get too turn happy at the 90. Its a work in progress...
Oh yeah, here's some pics for everyone to see what I mean... labelled Abeam and 180Turn
Let me know what you think or where you start your turns.
Later
Sludge
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... Would it be possible to have another mission with a carrier off the coast of Oceana or California?
With the next version of the program you will be able to fly any FSX carrier mission, provided there's a carrier (either the default or Javier's) in that mission. That means you will be able to create your own missions at any locations of your choice or use someone else's carrier missions. No limitations whatsoever. 8)
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Cool, thanks Serge. Now I just need to learn how to make missions ;)
Has anyone tried using FSX Instant Mission Maker? Any thoughts on if it is worth it to buy for making carrier and FCLP missions?
-CAPT
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With the next version of the program you will be able to fly any FSX carrier mission, provided there's a carrier (either the default or Javier's) in that mission. That means you will be able to create your own missions at any locations of your choice or use someone else's carrier missions. No limitations whatsoever. 8)
Serge...
That's awesome. Man, this vLSO keeps getting better and better.... that will make it soo flexible for carrier ops missions, especially that I like to fly out of Miramar.
Later
Sludge
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Has anyone tried using FSX Instant Mission Maker? Any thoughts on if it is worth it to buy for making carrier and FCLP missions?
-CAPT
I haven't tried FSX Instant Mission Maker but I did purchase a copy of FSX Mission Editor a while back. What I have found is that it isn't very intuitive. I tried to edit some existing missions and found it a bit cumbersome. I originally tried moving the TGS missions from the east coast to the west coast but wasn't very successful. Perhaps after I get into the manual more I will get more out of the program.
Mike
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Sludge and Mike,
Thanks for the input, I agree it is really difficult to make that groove time in FSX with view and sim limitations (screen size, etc). If you can post pictures detailing the 180 to the groove Sludge that would helpful. Also I want to see this flight chair you've built. 8) I am up for trying the rudder mod, see if it helps, does it just coordinate rudder for your turn? Is it different then the FSX auto-rudder feature?
As for ship placement, Oceana or Miramar would be great, but I will leave it up to Serge. I don't want it to detract from other developments, because once you are in the groove it really doesn't matter where you are, unless you need to bingo/divert ;)
Subs17, I saw the PMDG ground crew video, that would be awesome if Javier included this in his next carrier release. Looks like he already started with the shooter animation on the CATs. I thought it would be cool to have one guy animated after you trap, giving you the hook up signal, then taxi clear of the landing area, then directions to a CAT. I am sure it is possible, but I won't hold my breath.
-CAPT
It would have to be a mission mod and not just Javiers carrier being edited. I think the existing ground crew 3d models would require editing and animation for handsignals for some of them but it would be within a mission as with that then you have the advantage of adding ATC to the Carrier, LSO and AI flights taking off and landing. If the carrier were to be edited to allow those functions it would still require a mission to be created as the deck crew have to interact with the player. Maybe with FSX@WAR they may have AI flights added to increase immersion. Just something I noticed in one of their videos.
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Guys,
Just a couple of questions...
As we agreed, the vLSO currently has four LSO talking levels - FULL (informative, advisory, and imperative), MEDIUM (advisory and imperative), MODERATE (imperative) and ZIP-LIP (no calls). According to the NAVAIR 00-80T-104 (p.9-2) the 'Roger ball' call is informative. This means that the pilot shouldn't 'call the ball' and receive 'roger ball' back if other than FULL level is selected. Right? But it seems to me that in real life pilots always call the ball (and get 'roger ball' back), unless in zip-lip conditions. Besides, in the NAVAIR 00-80T-104 (p.9-1) we read The LSO should not permit perceived pressure to maintain total radio silence during EMCON training or ZIP LIP conditions to override his absolute responsibility for the safe recovery of aircraft.
I do believe that ball call is crucial for safety of flight, and this means that calling ball should take place in all LSO talking levels, except Zip-Lip. So this confusing me a bit... :) What do you guys think about it?
Another question. In the NAVAIR 00-80T-104 (figures 11-1, 11-2, pp.11-2, 11-3 respectively) you can see a Cut pass recorded. Its handwritten comment says 'landed on WO' and in the wire column there's T1. What's that? What does this T1 mean?
Thanks
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Serge...
Good questions, to which I have no "real world" answers. Maybe we can get Mike to ask his son OR we can get JIMI to ask the Hornet driver.
Later
Sludge
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Serge,
I agree, having the ball call and roger ball for all ops except "zip lip" sounds right to me. I thought I read somewhere that for zip lip in the real world, the LSO would flash the cut lights (green lights) to signal to the pilot a "roger ball".
T1 probably means "Taxi into 1 wire", which means you landed well before the first wire then taxied into and caught the 1 wire, very dangerous.
-CAPT
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Serge...
Good questions, to which I have no "real world" answers. Maybe we can get Mike to ask his son OR we can get JIMI to ask the Hornet driver.
Later
Sludge
I have an email off to my son. I'll let everyone know when I get an answer.
Mike
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Just got a reply back from my son. CAPT is right, he landed way short of the 1 wire and "taxied" into it.
Mike
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Hi Folks,
The vLSO looks awesome. Can someone please point me to where I can download it. Many thanks
Gary
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Hi Folks,
The vLSO looks awesome. Can someone please point me to where I can download it. Many thanks
Gary
Look here http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=4138.180
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Thanks, sadly I have already tried both those links and they are dead.
cheers
Gary
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Thanks, sadly I have already tried both those links and they are dead.
cheers
Gary
I'm not sure, others may make a better comment, but I think a new release is soon to happen so the now old alpha is not very useful.
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That's correct. I'm getting first beta release ready, that's why I have removed the alpha from downloads.
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An old '1 wire' discussion here with some interesting info about WOD for Hornets:
http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=2495.msg20801;topicseen#msg20801
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(.doc file 74Kbs) The link below does not work for me now. I'll look for doc on computer:
[.DOC file now attached - good reading for fsxnp in particular]
http://www.cvw7.navy.mil/inc/cmodules/dms/download-rel.php?secid=99&id=0&filesystem_id=7199
SIGNAL OFFICER TRAINING/CARRIER LANDING SAFETY PROGRAM
"Glide slope. When using the FLOLS/IFLOLS, under normal conditions the following basic angles will be used.
Basic Angle Relative Head Wind
3.5 degrees < 33 kts
3.75 degrees 33-37 kts (Hornets 33Klbs)
4.0 degrees > 37 kts sustained (Hornets 33Klbs/half flaps)
(5) Wind. During normal operations wind calls will be made periodically. During “ZIP LIP,” wind calls will not be made if WOD is 25-30 knots."
Changing the glideslope basic angle helps keep safe 'hook to ramp' when conditions not ideal ie. ship movement. "Consideration should be given to rigging MOVLAS when deck movement is + 7 feet or when LSO’s must talk 50% of the time."
"Groove length. Proper groove length is 15-18 seconds, 19-21 seconds will be graded as “little long in the groove.” If it is required to waveoff a LIG aircraft it will be graded as 2.0 points (WOP).
(Hook skip bolters. Hook skip bolters may or may not count against boarding rate. If the hook skip was pilot induced i.e., fast nose down, or dropped nose to land, then the hook skip shall be graded as a bolter and count against boarding rate. If the hook skip was not pilot induced, the pass will be graded as a "no-count" and shall not be counted against boarding rate."