FSDreamTeam forum
General Category => Unofficial F/A-18 Acceleration Pack board => Topic started by: CW769 on January 10, 2008, 09:42:25 pm
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Hi
I just registered with fsdreamteam.My question:
Having problems with the ACCEL F-18 brakes on landing...WHen the brakes are applied , the F-18 is very difficult to control , will turn sideways and spin out of control...
If I tap the brakes quickly , I can manage to keep control , however I think there is something wrong with the brake set-up ...
Appreciate your comments..........Thanks Barrie
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i noticed the same thing... its impossible to land without spinning
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Is there a fix for the F-18 brakes......Some of you high tech guys must have the answer..
Barrie
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Have a look here:
http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=121&topic_id=431486&mesg_id=431486
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Have a look here:
http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=121&topic_id=431486&mesg_id=431486
doesn't help too much, i see some people saying they dont have problems, and they gotta be kidding, because it is impossible to land the f-18 without sliding sideways. theres no way you can land it perfectly like any other jets, even if you turn your rudder controls off, or increase its null zone to max. the plane gotta be bugged or something
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Are you using real rudder brakes, or simply hit the brake key/button ? I guess that might be a big difference, because with rudder brakes you can apply the desired amount of braking force, but with keyboard or joystick button, it's either 0% or 100% braking, and that might impact stability.
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I only have trouble with the brakes when I'm still moving pretty fast. Following the lead of real Hornet pilots, after I touch down I keep my nosewheel off the ground as long as possible and use aerodynamic braking. Be careful you don't scrape your tail while doing this. Once the nose falls, I use the brakes. Usually don't have a problem.
I am using the full on/full off braking, not the rudder brakes.
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The problem is definitely there! Things I do to avoid:
-as soon as back wheel touch down I engage the speed brake and keep nose up to bleed airspeed
-as soon as front wheel touches down I start tapping brakes first twill speed is around 50, then press it down
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I had the same issue for the longest time until I finally solved it. I went into my joystick settings in Windows and increased my null zone. It wasn't until I pulled up the null zone tab in the settings that I realized my rudder control was way off to one direction. If your pedals/yaw aren't centered when you hit the brakes, expect to do some sliding.
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its not a problem with joystick settings or anything, the f-18 doesnt work like the other aircrafts, thats the problem, if you touch the ground and you're not aligned, like one of your wings is higher than the other, and that makes one side of your landing gear touch the ground first, you'll slide. other aircrafts will correct their align as soon as they're on the ground, but not the f-18, and this needs a fix.
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Well without modifying anything at all Chupaflier's method works the best. That's how the real naval aviators or for that matter any military aviator flying jets does it, landing on a runway not a carrier of course. Try not using the brakes at all until your speed gets down to around 30 or less knots. Just let the plane roll out. The unalligned sliding is probably caused by the fact that the model designers made the gear springy like a real F/A-18A. Other aircraft have rigid gear but like we've said before the F-18 is designed to make hard arrested carrier landings. So the designers of the real plane put little thought into runway landings. The designers of the model just went off of the real planes specs, hence the sensitivty.
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I think the sliding is actually caused by the locking up of the wheels which would happen if you jam them on suddenly. Can either pump the brakes or gradually apply them. You can stop on quite a short runway if you combine aerodynamic braking with gradual braking.
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I think the sliding is actually caused by the locking up of the wheels which would happen if you jam them on suddenly. Can either pump the brakes or gradually apply them. You can stop on quite a short runway if you combine aerodynamic braking with gradual braking.
thats what im talking about, i'll still slide even if i tap the brakes to stop at the end of the runway
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Try not touching the brakes until you're below 80kts, or even try not using them until lower speeds. When you use them just tap it a couple of times. Also try deploying the airbrake as well.
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Deploying the airbrake should be an always when landing fighters. Subs, I agree that wheel jam up could be the problem i dont think it's the only problem. In any other plane jaming on the brakes at speeds of 80+ doesnt cause any sliding even close to the sliding the F-18 does.
Fael097
Do u have rudder pedals with an axis that allows for normal and differential brakes or do u just have the brake button mapped to a joystick? The button just gives u 0 or 100% brakes with no inbetween. If u have a way to make a slider or a pedals axis the brakes then u can control how much braking u apply which may help with the sliding.
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I don't seem to have this problem. I use my keyboard to apply the brakes, and I stand on the brakes once I'm in a three point attitude. I find it hard to believe that it has anything to do with the joystick or throttle. I have the Cougar HOTAS joystick and throttle, both modified with the Hall's sensors. I have made several changes to the aircraft.cfg file. Listed below are the changes that I have made in the landing gear contacts section:
[contact_points]
//0 Class
//1 Longitudinal Position (feet)
//2 Lateral Position (feet)
//3 Vertical Position (feet)
//4 Impact Damage Threshold (Feet Per Minute)
//5 Brake Map (0=None, 1=Left, 2=Right)
//6 Wheel Radius (feet)
//7 Steer Angle (degrees)
//8 Static Compression (feet) (0 if rigid)
//9 Max/Static Compression Ratio
//10 Damping Ratio (0=Undamped, 1=Critically Damped)
//11 Extension Time (seconds)
//12 Retraction Time (seconds)
//13 Sound Type
//14 Airspeed limit for retraction (KIAS)
//15 Airspeed that gear gets damage at (KIAS)
;Gear 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
point.0 =1.000, -18.000, 0.000, -6.600, 1600.000, 0.000, 0.916, 75.000, 0.100, 3.500, 0.950, 3.000, 3.000, 0, 250.000, 300.000
point.1 =1.000, -35.500, -5.100, -7.300, 1600.000, 1.000, 1.250, 0.000, 0.867, 1.700, 0.900, 3.500, 3.500, 2, 250.000, 300.000
point.2 =1.000, -35.500, 5.100, -7.300, 1600.000, 2.000, 1.250, 0.000, 0.867, 1.700, 0.900, 4.000, 4.000, 3, 250.000, 300.000
I've made modest changes to the gear geometry and stroking characteristics. I find it hard to believe that these changes are the cure.
Maybe someone who is having these problems will try my changes and report back. Remember to make a backup of your aircraft.cfg file first.
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Today I bought the Trustmaster Couger joystick because my MS Sidewinder broken down. I made a flight plan KLAX to KSFO. Left from KLAX 25R and set GPS to Land 28R at KSFO, on the way at ZURET came down to 8000ft and then MOVER came down to 4500ft. The spped was 350knts and set the ILS Freq. 111.70 Rynway 28R at KSFO. Then at SAPID pressed Activate Vectors to Final in the GPS. Then slowly reduce the speed to 180knts and when I land it was 120knts. There was no side slips at all and F-18 went to the other end of the rumway without any slipping to a side. This was my fight landing using the F-18.
I think if we can reduce the speed to low then the landing is smooth.
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I don't seem to have this problem. I use my keyboard to apply the brakes, and I stand on the brakes once I'm in a three point attitude. I find it hard to believe that it has anything to do with the joystick or throttle. I have the Cougar HOTAS joystick and throttle, both modified with the Hall's sensors. I have made several changes to the aircraft.cfg file. Listed below are the changes that I have made in the landing gear contacts section:
[contact_points]
//0 Class
//1 Longitudinal Position (feet)
//2 Lateral Position (feet)
//3 Vertical Position (feet)
//4 Impact Damage Threshold (Feet Per Minute)
//5 Brake Map (0=None, 1=Left, 2=Right)
//6 Wheel Radius (feet)
//7 Steer Angle (degrees)
//8 Static Compression (feet) (0 if rigid)
//9 Max/Static Compression Ratio
//10 Damping Ratio (0=Undamped, 1=Critically Damped)
//11 Extension Time (seconds)
//12 Retraction Time (seconds)
//13 Sound Type
//14 Airspeed limit for retraction (KIAS)
//15 Airspeed that gear gets damage at (KIAS)
;Gear 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
point.0 =1.000, -18.000, 0.000, -6.600, 1600.000, 0.000, 0.916, 75.000, 0.100, 3.500, 0.950, 3.000, 3.000, 0, 250.000, 300.000
point.1 =1.000, -35.500, -5.100, -7.300, 1600.000, 1.000, 1.250, 0.000, 0.867, 1.700, 0.900, 3.500, 3.500, 2, 250.000, 300.000
point.2 =1.000, -35.500, 5.100, -7.300, 1600.000, 2.000, 1.250, 0.000, 0.867, 1.700, 0.900, 4.000, 4.000, 3, 250.000, 300.000
I've made modest changes to the gear geometry and stroking characteristics. I find it hard to believe that these changes are the cure.
Maybe someone who is having these problems will try my changes and report back. Remember to make a backup of your aircraft.cfg file first.
nice try but it didnt work
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Diga
I dont know how u did it right without slippin on ur first try. My first try i turned sideways and then spun out down 50 feet of the runway. I stopped with my nose in the air and my tail in the dirt. Had to lite full AB to get back level. I was flyin the approach about 130 and touched down at about 100 so speed wasnt the problem.
WilliamCall
Havent tried ur fix yet but i plan to.
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Try not touching the brakes at all see what that does.
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Try not touching the brakes at all see what that does.
lol i'll need a 10miles runway :P
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I have experienced this on the carrier landings and also if I use rudder on a landing. Maybe it has something to do with realism settings? I have mine full-right, bar the landing toleration, which is set to 60% as I am a helo pilot by day and like to practice auto rotation and other funky stuff in FSX.
I land at 125KIAS, I shouldn't need to tell anyone to land INTO wind. If you fly a crosswind landing, dip the wing and don't use rudder. Keep the nose up as long as it allows you and even fight to keep it up. Use air brake either throughout the approach and touchdown (I do) or use it like auto-spoilers so you extend it on touchdown. Brake only when the nose wheel forces itself down.
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Maybe it has something to do with realism settings?
no.
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Hey Fael
Forgot to ask: Are you using the XLoad F/A-18D or the Acceleration F/A-18A? Not sure but this might have something to do with it.
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Hey Fael
Forgot to ask: Are you using the XLoad F/A-18D or the Acceleration F/A-18A? Not sure but this might have something to do with it.
its the f-18a on the vid
i use both, and they're just the same
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Hey Guys... I'll post a couple paragraphs I posted over at AVSIM tonite... and my recommendations echo what others have said here:
"Several are having a tough time... maybe there is something with the flight model... I mean the mains are fairly close together and maybe with the combination of the CG location and possibly having a lateral moment like one brake is slightly more effective than the other (don't ask me how and I certainly don't subscribe to that theory) or more likely...
"Wheelbarrowing" from: High Landing Speed, Too much brake and/or the stick not being full aft (or even forward to "keep" the aircraft on the runway!) which sets up a "tricycle gear ground loop". The F/A-18 does use a stabilator, which, IRL makes an aircraft equipped with such typically more prone to wheelbarrowing (due to increased control effectiveness).
Pitch to keep an "Onspeed" indication in the AOA Indexer and Power to stay on glideslope (VASI, PAPI, LAR {Looks About Right} or whatever) and full flaps to reduce landing speed. Remember, Groundspeed X 6 = fpm descent rate for a nice, gentle ~3 degree descent.
Mains touch... Deploy the Speedbrake and stick full aft to keep the nose wheel off as long as possible. Light, judicious use of the brakes (don't stand on them), keep the stick aft... and you should be "OK".
Landing accidents are a big problem "in the world": probably due to excessive landing speed and improper use of flaps. I think it's just the Hornet in FSX is a little more sensitive to technique, not that there is an inherent problem in the model."
Whoever made the video... I don't think that it's valid to compare the braking of a 737 with that of the F/A-18. I mean... I see your point, but like I said, I think this is more of an issue of the FSX Hornet being more sensitive to technique and its ability to Wheelbarrow.
Aircraft Brakes! :o Wow you guys!! Thanks to my first instructor's philosophy ("Aircraft brakes?! We don't need no stinkin' aircraft brakes!") it was more or less just something that needed to be checked on preflight... I was rarely permitted to use them. Make sure to keep the stick aft during decel... and for pete's sake... stay off the brakes unless you "really" need them. :)
Rob O.
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Try not touching the brakes at all see what that does.
lol i'll need a 10miles runway :P
You'll be surprised how much speed you can bleed just by aerobraking and using the airbrakes.
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While I agree, SUBS, that aerobraking and poppin the speedbrakes (airbrakes, spoilers whatever u wanna call it) will slow u down alot. it wont bring u to a dead stop unles like Fael said u have about a pretty dang long runway. You gotta brake eventually and unless u have room to roll out until ur speed's down to about say twenty five knots ur gunna spin when u start hittin the brakes.
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subs.
i can land perfectly if i want, i can keep the centerline if i touch the ground @ ~130-140kts and wait until 80kts to brake.
all im trying to say is that it shouldnt slide like that, just because im braking at a little higher speed (100kts isnt too far from 80, but it is enough to "kill me" in game), i dont know what happens IRL but it cant be like that, and w/e it is, it should only happen if the realims settings are set to very realistic, or nothing should happen at all, i dont think they purposely added this sliding, since nothing happens when you do the same thing with any other plane.
sounds like a bug to me.
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I posted a video response to your test Fael ()... I am convinced it is due to wheelbarrowing and an induced lateral moment (from the pilot). You can see in your video the increased force on the nosewheel from heavy braking. Also can be seen in mine (as is 100% brakes from 155+ to 0kts) esp. when I input full forward stick (to *increase* down force on the nosewheel to increase the wheelbarrow in hopes of inducing a Ground loop). If I input side-stick, yes I can initiate the slide, but then... that is my fault as I am using (even more) improper technique. :o
Just because the aircraft will Ground Loop doesn't mean there is a problem with the model... the fault usually lies (as IRL groundloops) with us as buggy pilots. ;)
Rob O.
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I posted a video response to your test Fael ()... I am convinced it is due to wheelbarrowing and an induced lateral moment (from the pilot). You can see in your video the increased force on the nosewheel from heavy braking. Also can be seen in mine (as is 100% brakes from 155+ to 0kts) esp. when I input full forward stick (to *increase* down force on the nosewheel to increase the wheelbarrow in hopes of inducing a Ground loop). If I input side-stick, yes I can initiate the slide, but then... that is my fault as I am using (even more) improper technique. :o
Just because the aircraft will Ground Loop doesn't mean there is a problem with the model... the fault usually lies (as IRL groundloops) with us as buggy pilots. ;)
Rob O.
o-m-g
wtf? how? for god, i cant do that. is it really 155kts?
i swear im gonna uninstall this shit right now
ok i just removed my joystick to test... im accelerating to 110kts, then i set power to idle, full flaps, speedbreak, until 100kts, then i hold period to brake and bam, it slides, i didnt even touch the controls...
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i have noticed that when you apply the brake and try to turn it applies differential brakes... could this cause the issue?
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Ctrl+Z info says it's 161kts which can be seen on the original .avi file (I cut throttle at 155 or higher... ). Btw I did it over and over that way seeing as high as 170 kts (it could have been higher... I was only looking for a minimum cut speed) both with flaps and w/o.
I was going to suggest something about your controller (in case there was an uncommanded aileron input) but unplugging it should have resolved that issue.
Maybe you should try the re-install. I would use the install procedure listed here: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=121&topic_id=428207&mesg_id=428207&listing_type=search as David Roch has excellent install tips for FSX (especially for DX10 and nVidia drivers)
I'll second his re-install procedure with... nothing running in SysTray (esp. anti-virus) or any other "programs". I defrag/reboot after every uninstall or install. Sure it takes longer, but I think it's worth the effort. Fwiw.
Rob O.
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Just to add to the confusion of how many people have this problem. I have FSX-A on both my brother's and my computer and the sliding occurs on both computers. ??? Man this is rediculous. I love this game but i can't land the damn plane. I can but its only by strokes of luck that i manage to get it under control when it starts spinnin.
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Try the following:
Go to Settings > Realism, under Flight Model, move the slider for General to mid-point (i.e. half way) and save.
I did this, and no longer experience any sliding when I apply brakes at any speed during landing.
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I think it is not necessary to apply brakes when you land, like somebody already mentioned and do apply very little when the speed is around 50knts - spoliers ON. Also how is your Joystick? Do not twist it and hold very lightly and check it.
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Try the following:
Go to Settings > Realism, under Flight Model, move the slider for General to mid-point (i.e. half way) and save.
I did this, and no longer experience any sliding when I apply brakes at any speed during landing.
LOL!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? IT WORKS !!!!!! HAHA
thanks a lot for your help, if you need something you can ask me :)