FSDreamTeam forum
General Category => Unofficial F/A-18 Acceleration Pack board => Topic started by: Mickey_Techy on April 07, 2012, 04:21:16 pm
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Dear FSXNP,
I came across a suggestion by a gentleman who goes by the nickname of 'Livingstone' on VRS forums today. Please refer the following thread http://forums.vrsimulations.com/forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4289&p=58210#p58210 (http://forums.vrsimulations.com/forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4289&p=58210#p58210).
His original post is about five hours ago, and I was thinking that LivingStone would have already made a post on this forum by now. But, since he has not, I decided to take the initiative. This is not my idea, it's LivingStone's; though, I'm wondering, why did I not think about it earlier.
After the stupendous success of vLSO, do you think it is possible for you to make another similar program called vAirTanker (or something like that) for Air-to-Air refueling Ops. The program would 'sense' the fighter's position from 80nm inbound, and make correct R/T calls to vector the fighter in, all the way till air refueling is complete, and then provide debrief on the quantity of fuel taken, the time taken for refuelling, time taken from Pre-contact etc.
Just wondering, if it can be done, and if yes, will it?
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There is a mission related to inflight refuelling for DCS A-10C which is payware. I haven't flown it yet but the guy who made it also did the BFT missions campaign which trains you to fly realistically. I doubt you would have a debrief specifically on refuelling on its own as a whole an entire flight is what is in a debrief not just refuelling etc. The process for refuelling is started with an AWACs call from there you would follow the vector by the AWACs to the Tanker. The vector can be either bullseye or Altitude/heading and then you start looking for it with your radar or IRL probably could already see it on the HSD by datalink or use TACAN as well. Joining up you request to refuel and the whole flight refuels moving from right wing to the left wing after you've refuelled. Its possible to have an AWACs mod made for FSX that could give you a vector to a tanker and its also possible to have a mission with all the above features in mp. As vector to carrier is possible in AI CARRIERs, a tanker is no different.
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SUBS17, good point and after seeing this post I was wondering if AICarriers can do the same with a tanker. Lately I have been using AICarriers to place sling loads in FSX, using the same system one would use to position the ships. I've added the freeware refuel gauge found in the Sludge Bug to all my AAR capable jets, both boom and drogue. As far as comms, there isn't much after getting vectors to the tanker and then once in position.
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Mickey_Techy, thanks for your post.
My purpose was : "just an idea" ...
I agree : we can find plenty of missions with carrier and tanker. I think that vLSO is awesome and when i said awesome, i mean : 1) it can work in free flight with your own missions and you don't need fixed missions, 2) it works in multiplayers or alone, 3) it can provide log, debrief, evaluations and statistics, ... 4) it adds realistic effects, 5) it's very simple to install.
And I think that i'm not alone to think like that.
That's all. Just an idea.
Anyways. Thanks for vLSO.
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Guys,
That's a good idea. Actually, a tanker request is already on my to-do list ;) This gonna be an organic tanking, i.e. a navy aircraft with a buddy tank, or something, circling above the carrier. No USAF jumbos... ;D
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Guys,
That's a good idea. Actually, a tanker request is already on my to-do list ;) This gonna be an organic tanking, i.e. a navy aircraft with a buddy tank, or something, circling above the carrier. No USAF jumbos... ;D
Always knew you will like the idea FSXNP ;)
Whenever it happens, I know it will be awesome.
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Guys,
That's a good idea. Actually, a tanker request is already on my to-do list ;) This gonna be an organic tanking, i.e. a navy aircraft with a buddy tank, or something, circling above the carrier. No USAF jumbos... ;D
The ideal way to go is talk to Orion and make a single player and MP version of a mission. You could add AI aircraft taking off and landing etc. Such things add immersion but you would want a carrier ATC freq as well as AI calls tied in with MP calls.
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SUBS,
I see... But this program is not mission-oriented. It can be used anywhere in the world provided there's a Nimitz class carrier somewhere near, put there either by AICarriers or by a mission, doesn't matter. :) Organic tanking will be just an option, so you'll be able to use it or to tank from any other AI aircraft, hanging around.
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SUBS,
I see... But this program is not mission-oriented. It can be used anywhere in the world provided there's a Nimitz class carrier somewhere near, put there either by AICarriers or by a mission, doesn't matter. :) Organic tanking will be just an option, so you'll be able to use it or to tank from any other AI aircraft, hanging around.
Thanks fsxnp, it's why so many people like vLSO ...
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SUBS...
I haven't flown it yet but the guy who made it also did the BFT missions campaign which trains you to fly realistically. I doubt you would have a debrief specifically on refuelling on its own as a whole an entire flight is what is in a debrief not just refuelling etc. The process for refuelling is started with an AWACs call from there you would follow the vector by the AWACs to the Tanker.
Just to help you out... its as realistic as 'simmers' can get. To clarify, its NOT AWACs, its AWACS. AWACS (airborne warning and control system) is what E-3s are called here at Tinker and AirForce-wide. Also, AWACS gives BRAA (NOT BullsEye) for point outs ... 'til the receiver (usually fighter) calls contact with the tanker and then its all on the receiver from there to make the tanker intercept happen. One exception is that for aircraft w/out an A/A Radar, AWACS can provide CLOSE CONTROL p/fighter's request. Rare but does happen. The easy way to do that would be for the CA (controlling agency) to give receiver an initial BRAA point out and vector; player matches that vector and responds... then at 20 NM, CA gives a vector; player matches/responds... at 10NM, CA gives vector; player matches/responds.. at 6NM, CA vectors receiver onto tanker's heading and calls "final turn"; player matches/responds and when sighted tanker calls "visual". Keep in mind, "Visual" call is for a visual on FRIENDLY aircraft, "Tally" call is for visual on ENEMY aircraft... just as friendlies give altitude in "ANGELS" and give enemy altitude as the whole word (ie, 28000="twenty-eight thousand").
To make a realistic flow, I would suggest that the player be given an "interface" that allows them to call some outside CA (AWACS, E-2C/D, CATCC, whoever) for vectors and then complete the "loop" once the player calls "contact" on the requested tanker. If needed, I can provide realistic comms and flow for the event.
Later
Sludge
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SUBS,
I see... But this program is not mission-oriented. It can be used anywhere in the world provided there's a Nimitz class carrier somewhere near, put there either by AICarriers or by a mission, doesn't matter. :) Organic tanking will be just an option, so you'll be able to use it or to tank from any other AI aircraft, hanging around.
Thats an ideal situation where it can be placed anywhere and have the AI aircraft spawn automatically. You would then have an immersive carrier which functions independently in FSX. Although for MP you would need a mission for it to work in MP. You could build on it to so start with one fleet a tanker then work up to packages taking off and landing, ground crew guiding AI and MP flights to CAT. etc. Radio calls in MP for both AI and MP flights.
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SUBS...
I haven't flown it yet but the guy who made it also did the BFT missions campaign which trains you to fly realistically. I doubt you would have a debrief specifically on refuelling on its own as a whole an entire flight is what is in a debrief not just refuelling etc. The process for refuelling is started with an AWACs call from there you would follow the vector by the AWACs to the Tanker.
Just to help you out... its as realistic as 'simmers' can get. To clarify, its NOT AWACs, its AWACS. AWACS (airborne warning and control system) is what E-3s are called here at Tinker and AirForce-wide. Also, AWACS gives BRAA (NOT BullsEye) for point outs ... 'til the receiver (usually fighter) calls contact with the tanker and then its all on the receiver from there to make the tanker intercept happen. One exception is that for aircraft w/out an A/A Radar, AWACS can provide CLOSE CONTROL p/fighter's request. Rare but does happen. The easy way to do that would be for the CA (controlling agency) to give receiver an initial BRAA point out and vector; player matches that vector and responds... then at 20 NM, CA gives a vector; player matches/responds... at 10NM, CA gives vector; player matches/responds.. at 6NM, CA vectors receiver onto tanker's heading and calls "final turn"; player matches/responds and when sighted tanker calls "visual". Keep in mind, "Visual" call is for a visual on FRIENDLY aircraft, "Tally" call is for visual on ENEMY aircraft... just as friendlies give altitude in "ANGELS" and give enemy altitude as the whole word (ie, 28000="twenty-eight thousand").
To make a realistic flow, I would suggest that the player be given an "interface" that allows them to call some outside CA (AWACS, E-2C/D, CATCC, whoever) for vectors and then complete the "loop" once the player calls "contact" on the requested tanker. If needed, I can provide realistic comms and flow for the event.
Later
Sludge
Im not sure but I think some aircraft already have TACAN for tankers work with the VRS Superhornet etc. It would be cool if you guys put your ideas together to make a realistic radio/procedure for the carrierops in FSX go for it. It would be even better if it worked in mp and all players could hear each others calls on the radio on the set freq like in Falcon.
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SUBS...
Thats an ideal situation where it can be placed anywhere and have the AI aircraft spawn automatically. You would then have an immersive carrier which functions independently in FSX. Although for MP you would need a mission for it to work in MP. You could build on it to so start with one fleet a tanker then work up to packages taking off and landing, ground crew guiding AI and MP flights to CAT. etc. Radio calls in MP for both AI and MP flights.
Yeah, would be good, but right now I'm working on my mods/tweaking, along with the vLSO testing for Serge. Maybe when that's done, something can be worked on along those lines... but more simplified. You are definately asking alot of just a few people. Again, you have to remember, this isn't a DEVELOPMENT TEAM, its a few people (mostly Serge) putting out programs FOR FREE. I mean, the whole ground crew guiding AI and whatnot is a complete Christmas wishlist item for a full development team, much less Serge alone. Just look at what it took the FSDT PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT TEAM to make their ground crew program for airports...
It would be even better if it worked in mp and all players could hear each others calls on the radio on the set freq like in Falcon.
So please keep the initial ideas simple (one at a time) and then down the road, as the idea becomes a working, proven program, you can add to your "Serge can you" wishlist. Cool?
Later
Sludge
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Yep sounds good, BTW I've heard someones already working on a ground crew mod for carriers so that may not be a problem.
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SUBS...
Yep sounds good, BTW I've heard someones already working on a ground crew mod for carriers so that may not be a problem.
Hope so, that would be awesome if someone could get that to work like the ground taxi cueing system thats built into FSX. Or something similar.
Later
Sludge
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There was in DIs Superhornet ground crew that would guide you onto the CAT. The ideal setup would be something similar with AI directing jets onto the CAT, hooking up the CAT and doing the same hand signals or better etc.
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It may not be necessary to create an AI Tanker mod because of Tacpac:
When the dust settles you'll be able to call for a tanker, fuel up behind an intelligent AI refueler flying dynamic racetrack patterns, then RTB to review the action (and lick your wounds) via TacView - an amazing ACMI playback system.
I think this will also work with MP.
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SUBS...
There was in DIs Superhornet ground crew that would guide you onto the CAT. The ideal setup would be something similar with AI directing jets onto the CAT, hooking up the CAT and doing the same hand signals or better etc.
Of course this is the dream but as we all know FSX can be a real pain to get things like that adapted. Not saying I wouldn't love it but very tough to program and make happen, especially in MP environments where everyone sees it.
It may not be necessary to create an AI Tanker mod because of Tacpac:
Well, thats really not a good reason to NOT create it. Some of us NON-VRS fanboys wont buy the SuperBug OR the TacPac but wouldn't mind a AI Tanker mod, IF it comes along. And, as I understand it, it will only work WITH the SuperBug, 'til they decide to let it out for 3rd party useage (SDK and whatnot)... and from their recent pre-order release buffoonery, I wouldn't count on that anytime soon, if at all.
Later
Sludge
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What buffoonery it takes time to develop a combat sim(it was obvious from the start it would take a while to develop), its even harder to make a mp combat mod for FSX than it is to make the AI do handsignals to everyone in mp. Tacpac will be the mod everyone is going to get because it has A/G radar, ATFLIR, MP Combat and is going to get an SDK. There is no way a community freeware mod could ever match that unless you had a team dedicated to creating it working full time. The reality is combat for jets is immensely complex so to get the combat in mp for FSX ain't going to appear out of thin air. Its at this stage Tacpac as far as I can see, going off and creating a separate mod would cause more problems than solve the issue of FSX not having combat. I know from the amount of mods I've used in the past in other sims the better approach is to let a developer in this case make a really good combat mod with SDK and then work with that. Besides you already have a VRS Superhornet licence unless you chucked it away. (and Tacpac is what $35 where some sims in the past have been as high as $100US)The other thing is unlike some developers in the past they are continuing to improve the Hornet and constantly evolve the combat aspect of FSX. When that SDK is released watch out FSX because IMO everyone will start finishing their half done combat aircraft/ships/helicopters/tanks etc. It will be even better when Prepare3d gets Tacpac and the VRS Superhornet. If that happens not only will you have a combat mod in a Global map like FSX but also its a sim that is evolving as well. Big benefits to the community when that happens hopefully both VRS and the Prepare3d and other mod/addon makers will keep open lines of communication to allow development to happen smoothly. As for mods like a tanker mod for the carrier I'm still for it as we do not yet have that feature it would look quite cool too.
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SUBS...
What buffoonery it takes time to develop a combat sim(it was obvious from the start it would take a while to develop), its even harder to make a mp combat mod for FSX than it is to make the AI do handsignals to everyone in mp. Tacpac will be the mod everyone is going to get because it has A/G radar, ATFLIR, MP Combat and is going to get an SDK.
The buffoonery I'm talking about is doing all those pre-orders for last summer and now they are coming out with it THIS summer. No matter how good the product ends up, that's a big time blunder.
Additionally, not everyone (myself among them) is gonna buy the Tac Pack. Mostly because it ONLY works with the SuperBug at this point. No guarantees have been made about us who won't ever use the Bug.
I know from the amount of mods I've used in the past in other sims the better approach is to let a developer in this case make a really good combat mod with SDK and then work with that. Besides you already have a VRS Superhornet licence unless you chucked it away.
Yes, the amount of mods YOU'VE USED in the past. Not the ones you've developed. Big difference there. Nope, I relinquished it back when I got in that debate with them. I was proven right, and they never fixed the problem. Even the real-world 'Bug guy, LCDR Rolex, verified my claims in the simulator... yet no response from VRS. So I wont buy their products.
Anyway, since this is obviously a personal subject and you are a VRS fan-boy, can we please return to what this thread was about and keep discussing what would be good idea for Serge to develop, if he wants and gets time when he's done with the vLSO?
If you wanna keep rambling on about what the VRS TacPack or the Bug will do, that's fine I could care less, I'll just drop out of the conversation. I have NO INTEREST in either product. If others do, they can chime in all they want...
Later
Sludge
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Ok then we'll wait and see but its quite clear from my perspective such a product everyone can benefit with if their ultimate goal is to make a detailed fully modeled modern combat aircraft. Its not fanboy stuff either as its clear to me that this is good not only for VRS SH users but everyone else whos into modern air combat because of the SDK.
Back on topic how difficult is it to chuck a tanker into the vLSO mod? What is the Organic refuelling BTW? I see that on the list for vLSO as well as that carrier qual stuff. BTW a refuelling reward or qualification is possible in FSX instead of a debrief if perhaps the player fully tops his tanks up an automatic refuelling reward could pop into the log book.
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Organic tanking means you get fuel from another navy jet (e.g. another F/A-18 with a fuel buddy store). Serge correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like the vLSO tanker call up would be similar to how you call up Javiers carrier using AICARRIERS in FSX? Using the menu to place an F/A-18 tanker (or other navy aircraft, S-3, A-6) in a tanker orbit at various altitudes (angels), maybe fixed to the carrier center for its orbit?? Anyways, it will be a nice addition, but one thing at a time. ;)
-CAPT
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Capt,
You're almost right ;) A tanker would start above the carrier and then orbit it for 10 or 15 minutes. I think its path should be a racetrack oval of, perhaps, 3x15 nm... And I'm still not sure about altitude selection... ;D
Anyways I'm open for discussion.
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Perhaps it would be a good idea to allow the vLSO to spawn carriers as well? I know AICarriers2r2 does a fantastic job doing this, but I sort have an aversion to Java because it's auto-updater is so annoying. :P
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(http://www.skeneintelligence.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/gates-scratching-head.jpg)
Would you be more specific on this, please?
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(http://www.flightsimworld.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
I mean functionality similar to what AICarriers2r2 has. Just a feature that allows you to add a carrier to any flight you're in, eliminating the need for having an AI route or using AICarriers2r2. I just don't like using AICarriers2r2 because it uses Java, whose auto updater I dislike.
I actually wrote a program to do this, but I'm having issues with the carrier yielding to the user, and it would be simpler to an end user to have it all implemented into one program.
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Orion...
Perhaps it would be a good idea to allow the vLSO to spawn carriers as well? I know AICarriers2r2 does a fantastic job doing this, but I sort have an aversion to Java because it's auto-updater is so annoying.
Now that is a good idea. Would be great to have it integrated INTO the vLSO for those times that you dont have a "test setup" with a carrier in free flight. Plus, just having that spontenaeous ability to set a carrier into a scenario would be great.
Serge...
You're almost right. A tanker would start above the carrier and then orbit it for 10 or 15 minutes. I think its path should be a racetrack oval of, perhaps, 3x15 nm... And I'm still not sure about altitude selection...
How would it start? User request, or when you reach a certain fuel state? What aircraft is it?
Later
Sludge
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Gif Diagram and two PDF pages attached are from CV NATOPS MANUAL 31 JULY 2009 NAVAIR 00-80T-105
http://info.publicintelligence.net/CV-NATOPS-JUL09.pdf
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(http://www.skeneintelligence.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/gates-scratching-head.jpg)
Would you be more specific on this, please?
If you use the latest Java then AICARRIERS will not work, I believe that is why he does not like AICARRIERS.
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Orion...
Perhaps it would be a good idea to allow the vLSO to spawn carriers as well? I know AICarriers2r2 does a fantastic job doing this, but I sort have an aversion to Java because it's auto-updater is so annoying.
Now that is a good idea. Would be great to have it integrated INTO the vLSO for those times that you dont have a "test setup" with a carrier in free flight. Plus, just having that spontenaeous ability to set a carrier into a scenario would be great.
Serge...
You're almost right. A tanker would start above the carrier and then orbit it for 10 or 15 minutes. I think its path should be a racetrack oval of, perhaps, 3x15 nm... And I'm still not sure about altitude selection...
How would it start? User request, or when you reach a certain fuel state? What aircraft is it?
Later
Sludge
I have some ideas how about a USNavy Tanker(freeware) such as an S3 when requested spawns at either near the carrier or at a realistic location based on the actual USNavy manual etc. Or could be directly above the carrier but there again for those with slower PCs maybe somewhere away from the carrier might be better for mp/FPS etc. You would want it on the menu as a selection rather than it automatically spawing because of a fuel state. If you're going that far maybe someday an E2 or even cap could be added to something like that. Reminds me of Fleet defender having all that cool stuff. lol or you could take things way further and have it spawn inside the carrier folded up, taxi to the elevator go up and unfold itself then taxi to the cat and take off.(probably way to complicated IMO but worth mentioning someday something like that would be cool to have)
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If you use the latest Java then AICARRIERS will not work, I believe that is why he does not like AICARRIERS.
No; I just don't like Java's updater. Runs on startup and always has a UAC prompt (and yes, I do know I can turn off UAC). Aside that, AICarriers is a fantastic utility.
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Dear Serge,
"Capt,
You're almost right Wink A tanker would start above the carrier and then orbit it for 10 or 15 minutes. I think its path should be a racetrack oval of, perhaps, 3x15 nm... And I'm still not sure about altitude selection... Grin
Anyways I'm open for discussion."
Can I please ask that, before you start this addition, you complete your project to make vLSO compatible with airports? :)
I am anxiously awaiting this so I can refine my landing technique and the go out to the carriers.
Many thanks,
Tregarth
P.S. I tried to use the quote button but I don't hink I used it properly, sorry.
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How would it start? User request, or when you reach a certain fuel state? What aircraft is it?
A user will select an add-on menu option to request for a tanker, which will then spawn overhead the boat. There will be an option in the vLSO.ini, specifying what aircraft to use as a tanker.
AFAIK, there are some tanker capable aircraft in FSX:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/F-18_Buddy_Refueling.jpg/640px-F-18_Buddy_Refueling.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/S-3_Viking_in-flight_refueling.jpg/640px-S-3_Viking_in-flight_refueling.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/KA-6_F-14_DN-ST-87-10386.jpg/640px-KA-6_F-14_DN-ST-87-10386.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/A4_RF8A_1960.jpeg/640px-A4_RF8A_1960.jpeg)
Gif Diagram and two PDF pages attached are from CV NATOPS MANUAL 31 JULY 2009 NAVAIR 00-80T-105
Here's an excerpt from the document:
6.10.3 Recovery Tanking Pattern
After the receiver is engaged, the tanker aircraft shall establish a racetrack pattern in the vicinity of the ship. Unless special circumstances exist, the tanker should not proceed more than 10 miles ahead of the ship. The downwind leg should be 3 to 5 miles abeam and tanking should be completed prior to reaching a point 6 miles astern to allow for proper pattern entry.
So, I was right - a racetrack tanking pattern of 15x3nm will do... ;D
Can I please ask that, before you start this addition, you complete your project to make vLSO compatible with airports? :)
I am anxiously awaiting this so I can refine my landing technique and the go out to the carriers.
If you mean FCLP support, be sure, it will be there. ;)
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I wonder if you could have a submenu with a selection of possible aircraft as tankers since there are so many aircraft types that can be tankers. Is aircraft TACAN just a VRS thing or are there other aircraft in FSX that have this feature?
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If someone can figure out a way to make FSX accept skeletal animations, you can theoretically make a hose that will actually connect/stretch with the airplanes deviation.
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In Lockon the hose is modeled in such a way that the hose can do that while refuelling. Its quite tricky to hook up with prior to FC1 it was scripted where once connected you remained attached until you backed off. Now it will move as you collect it with the probe, if they ever model airflow over the drogue it'll be very interesting to hook up with.
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If someone can figure out a way to make FSX accept skeletal animations, you can theoretically make a hose that will actually connect/stretch with the airplanes deviation.
I know someone managed to get the boom on a tanker to hook up to the MilViz F-15E. (I think it was Chris Dub?) I think the VRS devs also have mentioned knowing how to do it, but in order to successfully make a hose/drogue work and look good, the model would have to be exceedingly complex.
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If someone can figure out a way to make FSX accept skeletal animations, you can theoretically make a hose that will actually connect/stretch with the airplanes deviation.
I know someone managed to get the boom on a tanker to hook up to the MilViz F-15E. (I think it was Chris Dub?) I think the VRS devs also have mentioned knowing how to do it, but in order to successfully make a hose/drogue work and look good, the model would have to be exceedingly complex.
Not so much, just an actual skeletal animation system, which will allow bendable joints based on mathematics, rather than predefined animation.
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If you use the latest Java then AICARRIERS will not work, I believe that is why he does not like AICARRIERS.
Sub17,
Even the latest Java works well with AICarriers. Just make sure you have a 32bit Java installed, EVEN if your OS is 64bit.
SandPro has written some elaborate posts on this subject in VRS forums.
I used to have the same problems too, but not it's all good.